The Strongest Argument for God

[Kenny]

Kenny wrote:
First of all, we were discussing TOOLS of science, not the definition of science. I asked him how does he know tools of science will never be able to detect things in his spiritual world, after all 150 years ago, nobody was able to detect germs at the microscopic level (microworld) but today we can.

And again, the reason why tools of science won't ever be able to detect things in the spiritual or supernatural realm, is because science only deals with the natural world. And by its very definition, "supernatural" means beyond scientific understanding, and the laws of nature.

Providing a definition of science does not mean tools will never advance to the level of working. How do you know they will never advance to the point of working? What will prevent this?

But you act as if science restricts itself from other worlds that exist.

I didn't write the definition of science. And I'm not the one who's trying to force science to be used for something that is was never intended to do.

The definition of the word has nothing to do with it. If another world were discovered, mankind would explore it using the system of science. Do you deny this?

As I said before, if such a world DID exist, and were discovered, it would be labeled physical.

No Kenny. That's not how it works. You don't get to define God.

I did not define God, I said if another world were found to exist it would be considered physical

From my perspective, what you are doing is no different than somebody proclaiming the existence of world “X” and science is unable to detect things at the world “X” level because science is only about the natural world.

If world "X" is a planet, then it would be part of the natural world/realm. So, from your perspective, you still fail to grasp the very basic difference between the meanings of natural and supernatural.

I said nothing about world “X” being a planet. It is no more a planet than the spiritual world is a planet. It’s just a world where someone claims it exists, but they provide no empirical evidence that it actually does; you know sorta like your spiritual world.

As absurd as this sounds to you, that is how it sounds to me because until somebody can provide objective evidence (something other than faith) that the spiritual world exists, to a non spiritual person (like myself) the claim of a spiritual world will sound as empty as any other world an imagination can dream up.

And as we've said, and you REFUSE to understand, science deals with EVIDENCE. So you will NEVER, EVER have objective evidence of something supernatural.

World”X” is that way also. You can never get objective evidence of World “X”. I guess according to your logic that place must exist also huh?

But guess what? We've shown you actual proof that God exists. Which you've also just refused to understand. The existence of God is completely logical! So, again, you refuse to understand logic.

As does the vast majority of scientists and cosmologists who study in the field. Yep some of the greatest minds in the world don’t understand your logic. At least I’m in good company huh?

[RickD]

Kenny wrote:
Providing a definition of science does not mean tools will never advance to the level of working. How do you know they will never advance to the point of working? What will prevent this?

Eyeglasses were never meant to be used as a hearing aid. Science wasn't meant to be the study of the supernatural. Just as there are different tools for different things, like eyeglasses to help sight, and a hearing aid to help hearing, science is the tool to study the natural.

kenny wrote:
The definition of the word has nothing to do with it. If another world were discovered, mankind would explore it using the system of science. Do you deny this?

It depends on if the world is physical or not.
Have I not been clear on this?

Kenny wrote:
I did not define God, I said if another world were found to exist it would be considered physical

No Kenny. I'm talking about when you said that if science can't study God, then either there is no God, or science fails.

Kenny wrote:
I said nothing about world “X” being a planet. It is no more a planet than the spiritual world is a planet. It’s just a world where someone claims it exists, but they provide no empirical evidence that it actually does; you know sorta like your spiritual world.

And as I have said over and over, there is no empirical evidence of something outside of nature. Empirical evidence is in science. Metaphysical proof is in something outside of nature, such as God.

Kenny wrote:
World”X” is that way also. You can never get objective evidence of World “X”. I guess according to your logic that place must exist also huh?

Your hypothetical world "X", is either natural, or outside of nature. Depending on which it is, everything I've said would apply.
It's really not difficult to understand.

Kenny wrote:
As does the vast majority of scientists and cosmologists who study in the field. Yep some of the greatest minds in the world don’t understand your logic. At least I’m in good company huh?

You have any empirical evidence that the vast majority of cosmologists don't believe in God?

This conversation has pretty much run its course. Unless you have something different to add, I feel like I'm just repeating what I've said before.

[Philip]

Rick: This conversation has pretty much run its course. Unless you have something different to add, I feel like I'm just repeating what I've said before.

Absolutely! Ken's irrational, constantly silly, contradictory, non-relevant / nonsensical answers have, at this point, been redundantly exposed into the "circular" corner of clear logical absurdities his thinking and self-motivating desire have trapped him in! From henceforth, I hereby deem such assertions as "KEN think!"

[Kenny]

Kenny wrote:
Providing a definition of science does not mean tools will never advance to the level of working. How do you know they will never advance to the point of working? What will prevent this?

Eyeglasses were never meant to be used as a hearing aid. Science wasn't meant to be the study of the supernatural. Just as there are different tools for different things, like eyeglasses to help sight, and a hearing aid to help hearing, science is the tool to study the natural.

Science is the tool mankind uses to study that which exists. Whether someone chooses to label it physical or not, if it exist mankind will study it.

kenny wrote:
The definition of the word has nothing to do with it. If another world were discovered, mankind would explore it using the system of science. Do you deny this?

It depends on if the world is physical or not.
Have I not been clear on this?

It doesn’t matter if it is labeled “Physical” or not, if it exist, somebody will study it; do you agree? If not, point to something found to exist that nobody chose to study.

Kenny wrote:
I said nothing about world “X” being a planet. It is no more a planet than the spiritual world is a planet. It’s just a world where someone claims it exists, but they provide no empirical evidence that it actually does; you know sorta like your spiritual world.

And as I have said over and over, there is no empirical evidence of something outside of nature. Empirical evidence is in science. Metaphysical proof is in something outside of nature, such as God.

Metaphysical proof? Metaphysicals provides subjective, logical, conclusions; I’ve never heard of them providing proof, have you? If so, can you provide a non theistic example of metaphysics providing proof of something?

Kenny wrote:
World”X” is that way also. You can never get objective evidence of World “X”. I guess according to your logic that place must exist also huh?

Your hypothetical world "X", is either natural, or outside of nature. Depending on which it is, everything I've said would apply. It's really not difficult to understand.

So according to you, anybody can make an unsubstantiated claim, whether it be of the spiritual world, or “X” world; and they should be taken seriously huh? If so this is where we disagree.

Kenny wrote:
As does the vast majority of scientists and cosmologists who study in the field. Yep some of the greatest minds in the world don’t understand your logic. At least I’m in good company huh?

You have any empirical evidence that the vast majority of cosmologists don't believe in God?

https://www.pewforum.org/2009/11/05/sci ... nd-belief/

[Kenny]

Rick: This conversation has pretty much run its course. Unless you have something different to add, I feel like I'm just repeating what I've said before.

Absolutely! Ken's irrational, constantly silly, contradictory, non-relevant / nonsensical answers have, at this point, been redundantly exposed into the "circular" corner of clear logical absurdities his thinking and self-motivating desire have trapped him in! From henceforth, I hereby deem such assertions as "KEN think!"

(LOL) KEN Think! You can say my responses to the unmoved mover argument are absurdities, silly, contradictory, and whatever other adjectives that might come to mind, but one thing you can’t say is that I ignore the argument or pretend it doesn’t exist, which I was accused of doing earlier.

[abelcainsbrother]

I think Kenny and atheists like him need to stay in a Haunted House.There are haunted houses and places in every State of America where people have experienced ghosts,spirits,orbs flying through the air,paranormal activity,poltergeist activity,etc. People even hire Christian experts and mediums to try to free their home of ghosts/spirits.Yet atheists don't seem to believe it. So they should research haunted places in their State and stay in one.Nothing supernatural Kenny? Why don't you stay in a haunted house? I think you should.

Haunted Locations. Here is a series of videos of haunted places in every State of America Kenny.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... 76QWs9vASg

[Kenny]

I think Kenny and atheists like him need to stay in a Haunted House.There are haunted houses and places in every State of America where people have experienced ghosts,spirits,orbs flying through the air,paranormal activity,poltergeist activity,etc. People even hire Christian experts and mediums to try to free their home of ghosts/spirits.Yet atheists don't seem to believe it. So they should research haunted places in their State and stay in one.Nothing supernatural Kenny? Why don't you stay in a haunted house? I think you should.

Haunted Locations. Here is a series of videos of haunted places in every State of America Kenny.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... 76QWs9vASg

Are you familiar with James Randi and his Million dollar challenge?
Known skeptic James Randi offered $100,000.00 for anyone who could demonstrate proof of supernatural, or paranormal activity under observed conditions. He began this challenge in the 1960’s and though countless people have accepted his challenge, they have all been proven to be fraud. For over 50 years not a single person has been able to prove him wrong and collect his money.
Since you obviously believe in the Supernatural, my question to you is; why do you suppose nobody has been able to shut this man up and take his money? How come one of the owners of some of these haunted houses you speak of haven’t invited Randi and his crew to set up shop and see some paranormal activity and be proven wrong?

[RickD]

I think Kenny and atheists like him need to stay in a Haunted House.There are haunted houses and places in every State of America where people have experienced ghosts,spirits,orbs flying through the air,paranormal activity,poltergeist activity,etc. People even hire Christian experts and mediums to try to free their home of ghosts/spirits.Yet atheists don't seem to believe it. So they should research haunted places in their State and stay in one.Nothing supernatural Kenny? Why don't you stay in a haunted house? I think you should.

Haunted Locations. Here is a series of videos of haunted places in every State of America Kenny.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... 76QWs9vASg

Are you familiar with James Randi and his Million dollar challenge?
Known skeptic James Randi offered $100,000.00 for anyone who could demonstrate proof of supernatural, or paranormal activity under observed conditions. He began this challenge in the 1960’s and though countless people have accepted his challenge, they have all been proven to be fraud. For over 50 years not a single person has been able to prove him wrong and collect his money.
Since you obviously believe in the Supernatural, my question to you is; why do you suppose nobody has been able to shut this man up and take his money? How come one of the owners of some of these haunted houses you speak of haven’t invited Randi and his crew to set up shop and see some paranormal activity and be proven wrong?

Kenny,

Your ignorance is astounding.

https://www.dailygrail.com/2008/02/the- ... challenge/

[Kenny]

I think Kenny and atheists like him need to stay in a Haunted House.There are haunted houses and places in every State of America where people have experienced ghosts,spirits,orbs flying through the air,paranormal activity,poltergeist activity,etc. People even hire Christian experts and mediums to try to free their home of ghosts/spirits.Yet atheists don't seem to believe it. So they should research haunted places in their State and stay in one.Nothing supernatural Kenny? Why don't you stay in a haunted house? I think you should.

Haunted Locations. Here is a series of videos of haunted places in every State of America Kenny.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... 76QWs9vASg

Are you familiar with James Randi and his Million dollar challenge?
Known skeptic James Randi offered $100,000.00 for anyone who could demonstrate proof of supernatural, or paranormal activity under observed conditions. He began this challenge in the 1960’s and though countless people have accepted his challenge, they have all been proven to be fraud. For over 50 years not a single person has been able to prove him wrong and collect his money.
Since you obviously believe in the Supernatural, my question to you is; why do you suppose nobody has been able to shut this man up and take his money? How come one of the owners of some of these haunted houses you speak of haven’t invited Randi and his crew to set up shop and see some paranormal activity and be proven wrong?

Kenny,

Your ignorance is astounding.

https://www.dailygrail.com/2008/02/the- ... challenge/

I glanced over the article, (it’s quite long) and the complaints about him appear to be people who claim to be able to do stuff. I was responding to haunted houses. I don’t think these complaints could be applied to an actual haunted house.

[PaulSacramento]

That's because as far as they know nothing exists outside the observable material world. My point is, if they found something outside this world they could address, they would address it.

How do they know that and how would they address it?

Whatever method they used to discover it, that method would likely allow them to address it as well.

Wow, I got say Kenny, as a mechanical engineer, I find you view of science and the scientific method, a bit strange and insulting.

You are saying that, even though there is no way for science to confirm or deny reality beyond the material world and, even though theoretical scientist talk about parallel universe and alternative dimensions beyond/outside the material world that, NOTHING exists outside the OBSERVABLE material world

If we assume there does exist a reality beyond the material world, are you saying there is no way mankind will ever be able to discover this reality? If so, how do you know this?

I am saying that SCIENCE is not in the business of the non-material world.

[Philip]

Paul to Ken: I am saying that SCIENCE is not in the business of the non-material world.

Paul, don't waste any more effort at pointing this out to Ken - he just won't accept it. He somehow seems to have deluded himself into believing that the problem isn't that science can't sift the non-material world, but that science simply hasn't yet developed the tools to do so. Course, the obvious question is, how could any discipline of man, which can only EVER examine the physical, EVER go beyond it's capabilities? Clearly, he thinks the problem has to do with science not yet having developed the necessary tools do do so. As opposed to the fact that the inescapable characteristics and parameters that science will ALWAYS be limited to, will NEVER have the necessary characteristics that would be required to examine ANYTHING, EVER, that isn't to be found within physically examinable parameters. Why he doesn't get this, well, my suspicion is that he's a pro at deluding himself. And only he can ask himself why he wants to do THAT.

[Kenny]

That's because as far as they know nothing exists outside the observable material world. My point is, if they found something outside this world they could address, they would address it.

How do they know that and how would they address it?

Whatever method they used to discover it, that method would likely allow them to address it as well.

Wow, I got say Kenny, as a mechanical engineer, I find you view of science and the scientific method, a bit strange and insulting.

You are saying that, even though there is no way for science to confirm or deny reality beyond the material world and, even though theoretical scientist talk about parallel universe and alternative dimensions beyond/outside the material world that, NOTHING exists outside the OBSERVABLE material world

If we assume there does exist a reality beyond the material world, are you saying there is no way mankind will ever be able to discover this reality? If so, how do you know this?

I am saying that SCIENCE is not in the business of the non-material world.

If an unknown world were found to exist, mankind will use the system of science to study it. The reason science is defined as the study of the material world, is because other than the imaginary world, the make believe world, or any other world whose existence cannot be verified, as far as scientists are concerned, the non material world does not exist! So when you say “science is not in the business of the non-material world”, that is like saying science is not in the business of studying that which does not exist.
Again; if an unknown world (whether it is labeled material or not is irrelevant) were verified to exist, mankind will study that world and use the system of science to study it. If you disagree, when has mankind refused to use science to study something that has been verified to exist?

[Kenny]

Paul to Ken: I am saying that SCIENCE is not in the business of the non-material world.

Paul, don't waste any more effort at pointing this out to Ken - he just won't accept it.

Why are you discouraging him from discussing with me? I’ve pointed out just as much to him that he refuses to accept, yet that hasn't discouraged me from discussing with him! Discussing and accepting goes both ways ya know!

He somehow seems to have deluded himself into believing that the problem isn't that science can't sift the non-material world, but that science simply hasn't yet developed the tools to do so. Course, the obvious question is, how could any discipline of man, which can only EVER examine the physical, EVER go beyond it's capabilities? Clearly, he thinks the problem has to do with science not yet having developed the necessary tools do do so. As opposed to the fact that the inescapable characteristics and parameters that science will ALWAYS be limited to, will NEVER have the necessary characteristics that would be required to examine ANYTHING, EVER, that isn't to be found within physically examinable parameters. Why he doesn't get this, well, my suspicion is that he's a pro at deluding himself. And only he can ask himself why he wants to do THAT.

I find it amazing after all the discussions we have had, that you actually believe what you just wrote. WOW!!!

[abelcainsbrother]

I think Kenny and atheists like him need to stay in a Haunted House.There are haunted houses and places in every State of America where people have experienced ghosts,spirits,orbs flying through the air,paranormal activity,poltergeist activity,etc. People even hire Christian experts and mediums to try to free their home of ghosts/spirits.Yet atheists don't seem to believe it. So they should research haunted places in their State and stay in one.Nothing supernatural Kenny? Why don't you stay in a haunted house? I think you should.

Haunted Locations. Here is a series of videos of haunted places in every State of America Kenny.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... 76QWs9vASg

Are you familiar with James Randi and his Million dollar challenge?
Known skeptic James Randi offered $100,000.00 for anyone who could demonstrate proof of supernatural, or paranormal activity under observed conditions. He began this challenge in the 1960’s and though countless people have accepted his challenge, they have all been proven to be fraud. For over 50 years not a single person has been able to prove him wrong and collect his money.
Since you obviously believe in the Supernatural, my question to you is; why do you suppose nobody has been able to shut this man up and take his money? How come one of the owners of some of these haunted houses you speak of haven’t invited Randi and his crew to set up shop and see some paranormal activity and be proven wrong?

It is irrelevant to me, because if you'd really stay in a haunted house you'd see James Randi does'nt know what he is talking about.Do some research because there are haunted locations in your State.You need to experience a ghost,etc so that you know people are not just making it up.People are not hiring experts, mediums,etc to free their house of these things for nothing and you need to experience them yourself.

[Philip]

ACB: Do some research because there are haunted locations in your State.You need to experience a ghost,etc so that you know people are not just making it up.

That is REALLY bad advice, ACB. Because the real deal would be demonic activity. Surely you aren't recommending a non-Christian go investigate the occult world???!!!