Hi Everyone,
There is now the belief by some philosophers, that we could actually be living in a "matrix" like computer system... that has become so advanced that "beings" living in it are so technologically advanced that they don't actually realise they're in it - or see the world as it has been created in the machine. Such philosophers support their assertions by comparing our biological systems to computer machinery. There is also a programme on TV called "What we still don't know," and this programme was mostly about how our body functions as what the dictionary can term as a machine.
Your thoughts?
In Christ,
Fr.A
The Matrix
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Mastermind
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Felgar
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Yeah, and our whole universe could be one of trillions contained within a larger universe. How would we know?
Having said that, the concept is quite ridiculous. The fact is that people are more than machines. We behave both reasonably and unpredictably. A computer on the other could be made erratic, but then it wouldn't be reasonable. We are sentient, and have a sense of right and wrong. I believe these traits to be intrinsically spiritual. For our best efforts, we cannot even 'simulate' the behaviour of any creature more advanced than a frog. And even then, that behaviour is not truly intelligent; it is deterministic and merely a simulation of that intelligence. And after all of that, I believe humans to be cognitively different than any animal - the result of the effect that our soul has on our consciousness - an effect that cannot be demonstrated in animals.
Thinking like this really comes from the average person's ignorance about how computers work. There's nothing magical or intelligent about them - given identical starting conditions it will behave exactly the same every time. We can feign randomness (in a variety of ways) to help mimic intelligence, but then we loose the essential deterministic property of the computer. In other words you can't have it both ways - accurate (reasonable) and unpredictable (intelligent, sentient)... And anything we make to do both is simply a simulation achieved by some mixing of the two.
Does that help at all? I can speak to the nature of Artifical Intelligence and the design of computers, but perhaps I've not made the point clearly. Let me know.
Having said that, the concept is quite ridiculous. The fact is that people are more than machines. We behave both reasonably and unpredictably. A computer on the other could be made erratic, but then it wouldn't be reasonable. We are sentient, and have a sense of right and wrong. I believe these traits to be intrinsically spiritual. For our best efforts, we cannot even 'simulate' the behaviour of any creature more advanced than a frog. And even then, that behaviour is not truly intelligent; it is deterministic and merely a simulation of that intelligence. And after all of that, I believe humans to be cognitively different than any animal - the result of the effect that our soul has on our consciousness - an effect that cannot be demonstrated in animals.
Thinking like this really comes from the average person's ignorance about how computers work. There's nothing magical or intelligent about them - given identical starting conditions it will behave exactly the same every time. We can feign randomness (in a variety of ways) to help mimic intelligence, but then we loose the essential deterministic property of the computer. In other words you can't have it both ways - accurate (reasonable) and unpredictable (intelligent, sentient)... And anything we make to do both is simply a simulation achieved by some mixing of the two.
Does that help at all? I can speak to the nature of Artifical Intelligence and the design of computers, but perhaps I've not made the point clearly. Let me know.
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Felgar
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Oh, I thought of some evidence to back my claim that our soul (our spiritual essense, or whatever) may actually affect cognition. Consider that Jesus freed people who were crazy because they were possessed by demons. Clearly the demons - who are spiritual beings - have the means to dramatically affect cognition, and to control the body that they inhabit. So the concept that our soul adds something to our physical body/machine in order to provide our higher cognitive capabilities (morality, emotion, sentience) is not out of line.
Given this, what a comforting thought that as Christians we have the Holy Spirit within us.
If God is for us, who can stand against us...
Given this, what a comforting thought that as Christians we have the Holy Spirit within us.
If God is for us, who can stand against us...-
Anonymous
http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/r ... x_gnos.htm
This is a very good article about the matrix and gnosticism.
In learnings in the past I was taught that the apostle John was in quite a battle with the false new "gnostic gospels". It may have been for this reason he emphasized the literal "flesh nature of Christ" The gnostics felt Christ was of a higher enlightenment so as to avoid the flesh.
In this insidious fashion the real sacrifice of Christ and our gospel would be denied. Note in this passage "blood and water". A true physiological sign of physical life and death.
John 19:34
Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water. 35The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe. 36These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”37and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”
This is a very good article about the matrix and gnosticism.
In learnings in the past I was taught that the apostle John was in quite a battle with the false new "gnostic gospels". It may have been for this reason he emphasized the literal "flesh nature of Christ" The gnostics felt Christ was of a higher enlightenment so as to avoid the flesh.
In this insidious fashion the real sacrifice of Christ and our gospel would be denied. Note in this passage "blood and water". A true physiological sign of physical life and death.
John 19:34
Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water. 35The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe. 36These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”37and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”
Re: The Matrix
Yes, but what came first? The body or the machine? Machines can't procreate or reproduce on their own, they need designers to build each one. That is the wonderful part about the human body. It maintains itself as well and repairs automatically. Maybe one day machines will reach that level, but I doubt it.FrAndrew wrote:Hi Everyone,
There is now the belief by some philosophers, that we could actually be living in a "matrix" like computer system... that has become so advanced that "beings" living in it are so technologically advanced that they don't actually realise they're in it - or see the world as it has been created in the machine. Such philosophers support their assertions by comparing our biological systems to computer machinery. There is also a programme on TV called "What we still don't know," and this programme was mostly about how our body functions as what the dictionary can term as a machine.
Your thoughts?
In Christ,
Fr.A
At the same time, one could argue that we are not in the real world at all. Again, what came first? The physical relm or the spiritual relm? If the spiritual relm came first, then it is the "real world" and the one we live in is fake but we have lived in it all our lives. It is all we know.
In esscence, everything down to the molecular level is made out of waves, including you! This very well could be a type of "matrix". Creepy.
In esscence, everything down to the molecular level is made out of waves, including you! This very well could be a type of "matrix". Creepy.
Cobra wrote:At the same time, one could argue that we are not in the real world at all. Again, what came first? The physical relm or the spiritual relm? If the spiritual relm came first, then it is the "real world" and the one we live in is fake but we have lived in it all our lives. It is all we know.
In esscence, everything down to the molecular level is made out of waves, including you! This very well could be a type of "matrix". Creepy.
Well, if the egg came before the chicken - who sat on it for it to hatch into the chicken? If Col. Saunders was around when the first chicken hatched - would there still be chickens?
Or if the Waffle House or IHOP existed when the first egg came into being, would there be any eggs?
This is a creepy matrix! No eggs and no chickens!
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Tim S
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The matrix
“As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter”.
The above statement was made by Max Planck as he accepted the Nobel Prize for Physics. I have often wondered if this is the progenitor of all this "Matrix" talk. It could be, but it closely parallels my own concept of God, but mine is derived from the scripture account of God's attributes. I don't think Planck was a believer in the biblical God but Romans 1:20 seems to apply here.
The above statement was made by Max Planck as he accepted the Nobel Prize for Physics. I have often wondered if this is the progenitor of all this "Matrix" talk. It could be, but it closely parallels my own concept of God, but mine is derived from the scripture account of God's attributes. I don't think Planck was a believer in the biblical God but Romans 1:20 seems to apply here.
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Swamper
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I don't believe that we're in a "matrix", but consider this:
If we are in a matrix, how do we know that artificial intelligence - artificial consciousness - is not possible? How do we know that the computers running the matrix have simply made such a thing impossible for us to achieve? We don't.
Just a thought.
If we are in a matrix, how do we know that artificial intelligence - artificial consciousness - is not possible? How do we know that the computers running the matrix have simply made such a thing impossible for us to achieve? We don't.
Just a thought.