Have we crossed the line yet?

[RickD]

B. W. wrote:
And Ed please don't waste my time by addressing me or name calling - it is a waste of time to engage in a conversation with you.

And yet, you come back on the forum and start a conversation with him.

What's the point of this?

[edwardmurphy]

Here is more for you and others on the seriousness of this topic - the head line read from all places CNBC - May 15, 2019

"Trump’s White House just put up an online form for people to complain about social media censorship"

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/15/trump-w ... rship.html

If not serious then why is this?

It's not serious. Trump had the form put up because doing so helps his false censorship narrative. Trump doesn't give a [poop] about free speech. He just wants to force the social media companies to let his supporters (and Russian trolls) use their platforms to get better viewership for their propaganda. This is a direct attack on the First Amendment. You're okay with that because from your paranoid, bitterly partisan perspective the ends justify the means.

Thankfully you're in Colorado - which is reliably blue - so as long as we have an electoral college your vote doesn't matter. Irony!

Also, CNBC reported on Trump having the form put up because it's news. Reporting that Trump made a claim doesn't the claim true.

And Ed please don't waste my time by addressing me or name calling - it is a waste of time to engage in a conversation with you.

Hmmm...

On the one hand, you said please. But it was part of an insult, so it was probably insincere. It's likely that you're baiting me in hopes that I'll say something that you can use to support your endless persecution narrative, so I probably shouldn't give you anything to work with. Still, your reasoning in that post was so tortured and illogical that I really want to tear into you a bit. But no, it's probably not worth my time.

Ok, B.W., I won't bother addressing you.*




* I addressed you and you read it! Neener-neener-neener! And you probably had to get your reading glasses to do it! Ha!*




* Gotcha again! Ha!

[edwardmurphy]

B. W. wrote:
And Ed please don't waste my time by addressing me or name calling - it is a waste of time to engage in a conversation with you.

And yet, you come back on the forum and start a conversation with him.

What's the point of this?

Who cares? It's delightful!

[Kurieuo]

Welcome back Bryan.

[abelcainsbrother]

B. W. wrote:
And Ed please don't waste my time by addressing me or name calling - it is a waste of time to engage in a conversation with you.

And yet, you come back on the forum and start a conversation with him.

What's the point of this?

Who cares? It's delightful!

I just wanted to remind you that I was right months ago when I told you the Obama administration committed treason and sedition by illegally spying on the Trump campaign trying to remove an elected President from office with lies and it is treason and sedition which are REAL Federal crimes and the truth will be coming out. I explained like Q said that the left and MSM will be carpet bombed where alittle bit if evidence comes out at a time of the treason and sedition of the Obama administration along with the MSM committing treason and sedition by working directly with the left to push this propaganda on to the American people and it is happening now just like I said,that you ignored as a crazy conspiracy theory. These are REAL Federal crimes not those made up crimes ya'll think Trump is guilty of without any evidence where the left continues to investigate him even after the Mueller report came out looking for any kind of crime they can find to try to get rid of Trump,which is illegal due to privacy rights and due process.This is treason.

But they are doing this because they know the Democrats and MSM will try to spin this evidence coming out,which they are doing now but by letting only alittle evidence come out at a time it prevents the MSM and left from spinning this and it will destroy their credibility even more than it already is. It is going to get more and more ridiculous for the MSM and Democrats to keep on ignoring and explaining away the evidence coming out.It will not work for the left and MSM to try to spin this as no big deal,etc though as Comey,Brennon,Clapper,etc go out there in the MSM and lie and try to spin this like it is no big deal,etc they will be proven wrong when more of the evidence comes out,the OIG report comes out,the Comey memo's,the Huber investigation,Horowitz investigation and President Trump declassifies the FISA abuse documents.

As Q asked,when do birds sing? The spring and it is the spring and the birds are singing as Comey,Brennon and Clapper,etc are starting to blame each other and point fingers at each other when they are all guilty.The Q team are in control. It is going to prove them all wrong as the liars and criminals they are with real evidence and they are going to eventually be tried in military tribunals and civilian courts depending on the crime they committed.It is Defense time for Democrats and their propaganda MSM.I predict the MSM will have to change because they are guilty of treason and sedition too and they can be prosecuted for it and it'll become more clear to them as this intensifies.Are they going down with the left too? Yes! Remember I told you that Trump and the Q team are using Sun Tzu techniques to destroy the Deep State and their Democrat and MSM puppets.The swamp is going to be drained in Washington DC.

[Philip]

B.W.'s last post has now been deleted - for violating forum rules. He nor anyone else will be allowed to publicly attack moderators or play to others to sway their point of view in public, over his disagreement with a mod.

He left because the other mods did not support and questioned some of his views and tactics - and so he decided to leave - freely, of his own choosing, supposedly wishing all well - as we wish him well. And in his first visit back, he just had to try to stir the pot by immediately antagonizing Ed, and now, additionally, with an attack upon Moderator RickD. This will not be allowed! And any further posts of this type will likewise be deleted. I would suggest that he or anyone who has a beef with the words or actions of a moderator to, as our rules clearly state, take it up privately with one or all mods. We simply will not allow public, things that should be privately discussed - which is not to discourage honest or even spirited public debate over ideas, beliefs, etc. But as for venomous, ongoing arguments - NO!

[Stu]

Yip, the world has officially gone nuts. The end can't be far away. When leftists get their hands on power this is what happens.

Authorities To Arrest Canadian Father If He Refers To Trans Child As Her Real Sex
Clark will be subject to arrest if any police officer has 'reasonable' grounds to believe that he's referred to his daughter as female in public or private.

Last Wednesday, The Federalist reported that the Supreme Court of British Columbia, Canada, declared a father guilty of family violence for his polite refusal to refer to his daughter as a boy in private, and his repeated choice to affirm in media interviews that she is a girl.

At about the same time that story was published, the Supreme Court issued an additional, more heavy-handed “protection order” from the same ruling. The three-page document declares that the father, Clark*, will henceforth be subject to arrest, immediately and “without warrant” if any police officer has “reasonable” grounds to believe that he has in any way referred to his daughter as a girl in public or in private.

...

As previously reported, the BC Supreme Court ordered in February that 14-year-old Maxine* receive testosterone injections without parental consent. Accordingly, Maxine began regular injections at the BC Children’s Hospital over the last two months.

Her father, Clark, strongly objects to this treatment and immediately sought to reverse the decision in the BC Court of Appeal. “[These injections] will completely disrupt her puberty,” he lamented to The Federalist several weeks ago. “Her bones will stop growing, her brain will stop developing… and she’s not gonna be a boy. She won’t even have the bone-strength left to be a girl anymore.”

More

[edwardmurphy]

"Clark" is selfish ******* who doesn't give a damn about his kid. It's sad.

a) Since age 11, AB has gender identified as a male. He informed his school counsellor of that when he was 12 years old and in Grade 7 (para. 11);

b) He is presently enrolled in Grade 9 at high school under his chosen male name and is referred to by his teachers and peers as a boy and with male pronouns. He has transitioned socially to being a boy (para. 12);

c) With his mother’s help, AB sought medical assistance to allow him to begin a physical transition. He was seen by a licensed clinical psychologist experienced in treating children with gender dysphoria on a number of occasions. That psychologist diagnosed AB with gender dysphoria, which is a condition where an individual experiences significant distress as a result of the sex they were assigned at birth being in conflict with their gender identity (para. 13);

d) At BC Children’s Hospital, AB was seen by a specialist in the field of pediatric endocrinology who concluded that hormone therapy was in AB’s best interests. The original recommendation to commence this treatment was made in August 2018, but was deferred to allow time for C D. to consider information regarding the therapy (paras. 18-20);

e) CD advised the hospital that he did not consent to hormone therapy for AB (para. 20);

f) On December 1, 2018, AB’s treating pediatric endocrinologist wrote to CD regarding the recommended hormone therapy. That letter stated that parental consent was not required due to AB having the capacity to consent pursuant to section 17 of the Infants Act, R.S.B.C. 1996, c. 223 (para. 22);

g) On January 8, 2019, AB informed his treating doctor that he was having “bad dysphoria” and worsening discomfort with his physical body as other boys his age were progressing through puberty. AB also informed him that he had attempted suicide in March 2018 (para. 24);

h) AB’s doctor at BC Children’s Hospital concluded that AB was experiencing ongoing and unnecessary suffering, and that gender-affirming hormone therapy could improve AB’s gender dysphoria and other co-morbid mental issues. Delay in provision of this treatment was not a neutral option, as it will AB at greater risk of suicide (paras. 25-26);

i) A psychiatrist in the mental health department of BC Children’s Hospital met with AB and concluded that AB had the capacity for informed consent for testosterone treatment. She found that there was no indication that AB’s decision was influenced by depression, anxiety or psychosis, or any systemic influences that were unduly affecting his decision to pursue testosterone treatment. AB’s psychologist and endocrinologist agreed (paras. 28-30);

j) Another qualified doctor reviewed AB’s charts and the procedures involved and confirmed that the above conclusions were made following appropriate guidelines. That doctor also opined that in the case of a child who is dealing with gender identity issues and who has previously attempted suicide, “…there is a significant risk of further attempts – and possibly even completion – if treatment is delayed” (para. 31);

k) AB swore his own affidavit stating that he was desperate to start the treatment. He states that every day his body develops more “female-ness” and he looks less and less like a boy it causes him distress and exposes him to the risk of bullying and harassment (para. 32); and

l) AB’s mother evidence included her belief that “If his treatment is put on hold, I am terrified that AB will conclude there is no hope and will take his life” (para. 33).

Look, I'll be the first to admit that this makes no sense to me. I don't get it. I was born a guy, I'll die a guy, and I can't imagine wanting to walk the streets in dresses. It's odd and a bit unsettling.

That doesn't make me blind to obvious, intense suffering. This kid knows what he wants. It's not a spur of the moment thing. He feels so uncomfortable in his own body that he tried to end his life. He'd literally rather die than live as a girl, and that's how he's felt since he was 11. If it was going to change it would have by now. A bunch of doctors talked to the kid and declared that he was rational and sincere and knew exactly what he wanted, and that he was likely spiral into deep depression and eventually kill himself if he didn't receive the treatment that he needed.

His father knows all of that, but not only was he not at all supportive, not only did he completely disregard the advice of a bunch of doctors, he even went out of his way to turn his kid's misery into a huge right-wing political scandal. He was so obnoxious that his kid had to seek a gag order to get him to shut up and stop giving confidential medical information to right wing pundits. As a father I find this guys behavior appalling. I can't even imagine having so little regard for my child's wellbeing.

So sure, Stu, I'll own this one. If the only thing between this kid and suicide is "liberals" then I'm damned glad they're there. Clearly you'd rather see a child die than consider the possibility that gender is more complex than the Bible says it is.

[Philip]

Funny, people think they are trapped in the wrong sex body - and then psychiatrists get on board and reinforce this idea, as does many in society. I think a very large percentage of these people are simply dealing with mental illness - why assume the problem isn't in their head? Also, a child before adult maturity might well have all kinds of issues and struggles with their sexuality. Again, adults re-enforcing this notion are irresponsible that an immature child correctly has a healthy grasp upon their sexuality. Children can be confused about all manner of things growing up. Plus, it is really foolish to assume these people aren't dealing with mental issues. And cutting off body parts and putting new rubber ones one will not make a person's sex EVER change.

[edwardmurphy]

Phil, it puzzles me that you feel comfortable chalking the whole thing up to mental illness while simultaneously rejecting the assessment of a bunch of mental health experts. Meh, whatever.

I've mentioned before that I like Quora. I like it because I care about facts, research, and evidence, but I can't always be bothered to do the work. Happily, lots of people post there who can be bothered to do the work. Here's an example of what I mean:

What changed your political opinion once and for all?

Research.

I’ve always been an issue by issue voter. Some things I lean right on, others I lean pretty left, although most “rightists” in the US today would think of me as very left. (I’m not.)

There are a lot of things my opinion has changed on over the years, and it always comes down to research, either research that debunked ideas I had held or research supporting an idea I had rejected.

I’ll focus on one, because it’s one where I can remember the specific genesis of the change.

Transgender people.

There was a time in the not too far distant past when my views on transgender people were different than they are today. Not too far in the past, I would have laughed at or even cracked a gender-bending joke with regard to transgender individuals, thought it was funny or ironic to refer to Caitlyn Jenner as a ‘dude’, or by her birth name, but there was more behind it.

Now I’ve always been fairly personally progressive especially on social issues, and my attitude toward transgender people would have always had a “Live and let live” foundation. There’s not a time in my life back to when I can recall having an opinion where I would have supported idiocy like forcing people to use the bathroom of the gender assigned at birth for example. I’d known and been friends with some people who were at minimum genderfluid, and never had a problem with anyone individually.

But I definitely didn't get it. And if you asked my opinion, I would probably have told you it was a mental illness or disorder maybe not even 5 years ago. I would have been extremely uncomfortable with the idea of parents letting their first-grade “boy” dress and live as a girl or starting hormone therapy before puberty, even just the kind of therapy designed to delay puberty.

A few years back, however, I saw a feature broadcast, not sure even where I saw it, about a young transgender girl in grammar school. The piece was about her, her parents, their difficulty with the school, etc. It was a REALLY well-done story. It was somewhere in that story during a section talking to the girl’s therapist or doctor, don’t remember which when I first understood the term gender dysphoria, and first heard the statistic that about half of transgender youth attempt suicide at some point in their lives. It was also when I first heard the stat that transgender children who have the full support of their parents escape that statistic — that the risk of depression and anxiety associated with gender dysphoria is nearly normal in cases where the trans individuals have their parents support, are allowed to live as who they feel they are, are called by their preferred name and referred to by their preferred pronouns.

Now I still at the time would have said “It’s a mental illness” if you asked me even though the professionals on the broadcast almost certainly made clear that it’s not. But … I do remember thinking: “If there is something wrong, and that thing results in a suicide attempt rate of 50%, and the treatment that basically erases that risk is ‘Let the kid be who they are,’ well how hard is that?”

And my discomfort with those parents allowing their child to be who she was disappeared.

Of course, I’m not the kind of guy who watches one thing and that’s the end of it. I probably spent the next few days looking for more information about the ideas the story had presented.

I learned that not only was it all true, but that I was not, in fact, a psychologist with specialized training in gender. So my “opinion” on mental illness was basically. You know. Crap.

I learned that the AMA didn’t agree with me

https://www.ama-assn.org/delivering-car ... der-patien

I learned that the American Psychological Association didn’t agree with me.

https://www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/transgender

I learned that the American Psychiatric Association didn't agree with me

https://www.dhcs.ca.gov/services/MH/Doc ... n_Disc.pdf

I learned that the World Health Organization didn’t agree with me

Growing recognition of transgender health

I learned that the American Academy of Pediatrics didn’t agree with me

AAP Policy Statement Urges Support and Care of Transgender and Gender-Diverse Children and Adolescents

I even learned that I had probably gotten the original information that I had based my original opinion on from a hate group masquerading as a Pediatric Association

Hate Group Fakes Pediatrics Organization to Attack Trans Kids | Human Rights Campaign

And I learned that the story was correct. About half of transgender individuals attempt suicide at some point in their lives

Trans teens much more likely to attempt suicide

And letting people be who they are has a significant impact on that.

Using transgender youths' chosen names may lower suicide risk

If you cannot actively seek information that counters your predisposed notions, and you cannot allow your opinions, ideas, and behavior to be modified by what you learn, I don’t think you can call it learning.

I'd been waffling on the concept of gender dysphoria - it still makes no sense to me - when I came across that pile of information, which clearly and concisely reminded me that I don't know [poop] about it and it's silly to act as if I do. I don't get it and I doubt I ever will, but I remember how it felt when we lost my wife's 23-year-old cousin to suicide. I saw her mom yesterday. It's been three years and she still looks fragile. Gender dysphoria wasn't a factor, but that's beside the point. The point is that suicide is a horrible thing and calling the kid in the article "he" rather than "she" reduces the odds of it happening.

Anyway, I followed the evidence and that's where I landed on the issue. You're welcome to hold tight to your own opinion, but by doing so you're basically asserting that you know more about mental health than the American Medical Association, the American Psychological Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the World Health Organization, and the American Academy of Pediatrics. That's bold...

[Stu]

I'll make a bet that somewhere down the line she will feel she made a mistake and want to be a girl again.

Messing with a kids brain and hormones before they are adults is disgraceful. It's amazing that just at the time in history when the transgender agenda is being pushed so hard, that we suddenly have kids that want to transition to the opposite gender. Look at Will Smith's kid, it's all a fad and sensationalised so the kids follow.

[PaulSacramento]

Does the AMA, WHO, APA and so forth, KNOW what CAUSES Gender Dysphoria?

No? then how can they make the statement that it is NOT a mental health issue?

I mean, I think that a though process that drives 40% of it proponents to attempt to kill themselves should be looking into, yes?

[PaulSacramento]

FYI,
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/artic ... ne.0016885

Abstract
Context
The treatment for transsexualism is sex reassignment, including hormonal treatment and surgery aimed at making the person's body as congruent with the opposite sex as possible. There is a dearth of long term, follow-up studies after sex reassignment.

Objective
To estimate mortality, morbidity, and criminal rate after surgical sex reassignment of transsexual persons.

Design
A population-based matched cohort study.

Setting
Sweden, 1973-2003.

Participants
All 324 sex-reassigned persons (191 male-to-females, 133 female-to-males) in Sweden, 1973–2003. Random population controls (10∶1) were matched by birth year and birth sex or reassigned (final) sex, respectively.

Main Outcome Measures
Hazard ratios (HR) with 95% confidence intervals (CI) for mortality and psychiatric morbidity were obtained with Cox regression models, which were adjusted for immigrant status and psychiatric morbidity prior to sex reassignment (adjusted HR [aHR]).

Results
The overall mortality for sex-reassigned persons was higher during follow-up (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 1.8–4.3) than for controls of the same birth sex, particularly death from suicide (aHR 19.1; 95% CI 5.8–62.9). Sex-reassigned persons also had an increased risk for suicide attempts (aHR 4.9; 95% CI 2.9–8.5) and psychiatric inpatient care (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 2.0–3.9). Comparisons with controls matched on reassigned sex yielded similar results. Female-to-males, but not male-to-females, had a higher risk for criminal convictions than their respective birth sex controls.

Conclusions
Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.

[PaulSacramento]

It should be noted that transgender people have been recognized as "normal" and have NOT been exposed to the "social stigma" of transgender-ism in Scandinavian countries for close to a generation ( 30 years) and yet the suicide rate is virtually the same.

And yet, you have studies like this the conclude otherwise:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5905855/

BUT if you read the study you will see quite a few issues with their conclusion.
Namely the fact that even the countries were it is accepted, the transgender people do NOT FEEL they are.

[PaulSacramento]

In short:
We don't know enough about the long term issues of Gender-identity disorders and for the WHO and others to come out with a absolute statement like that is irresponsible.


Side note:
If someone identified themselves as amputee and chopped of an arm, I am sure that their mental health would be called into question.


Normalizing a mental health problem is not doing anyone suffering from that problem, any favours.