WLC and the moral argument

[Kenny]

Paul,

You seem to be saying that we cannot discuss what is right, and what is wrong, unless we first acknowledge that things are in fact morally right or morally wrong. Which I agree with.

But, the issue is where morality comes from.

Someone like Kenny says that there is such a thing as morality, but it's not objective. Morality is in the human mind.

Wow! It's like you took the words right out of my mouth!

Kenny,

What I've shown you there, is how someone can understand a differing point of view, and present that differing point of view, without arguing against a straw man. So that way, both sides know that the differing point of view is understood.

It's an amazing concept. You should try it sometime.

If I did that, I would just be preachin' to the Choir along with everyone else. There is no shortage of views here that are opposite of mine. There is a shortage of views like mine.

Kenny,

I'm not saying you need to agree with someone else's argument. I'm saying that you should make it a point to understand it.

You shouldn't assume that because I don't agree with you; that I don't understand what you are saying.

[RickD]

Wow! It's like you took the words right out of my mouth!

Kenny,

What I've shown you there, is how someone can understand a differing point of view, and present that differing point of view, without arguing against a straw man. So that way, both sides know that the differing point of view is understood.

It's an amazing concept. You should try it sometime.

If I did that, I would just be preachin' to the Choir along with everyone else. There is no shortage of views here that are opposite of mine. There is a shortage of views like mine.

Kenny,

I'm not saying you need to agree with someone else's argument. I'm saying that you should make it a point to understand it.

You shouldn't assume that because I don't agree with you; that I don't understand what you are saying.

I don't assume. I KNOW that you don't understand, from your responses.

[Kenny]

Kenny,

What I've shown you there, is how someone can understand a differing point of view, and present that differing point of view, without arguing against a straw man. So that way, both sides know that the differing point of view is understood.

It's an amazing concept. You should try it sometime.

If I did that, I would just be preachin' to the Choir along with everyone else. There is no shortage of views here that are opposite of mine. There is a shortage of views like mine.

Kenny,

I'm not saying you need to agree with someone else's argument. I'm saying that you should make it a point to understand it.

You shouldn't assume that because I don't agree with you; that I don't understand what you are saying.

I don't assume. I KNOW that you don't understand, from your responses.

If that were the case, my replies would not make sense, and you would be able to explain WHY my replies do not make sense.

[RickD]

If I did that, I would just be preachin' to the Choir along with everyone else. There is no shortage of views here that are opposite of mine. There is a shortage of views like mine.

Kenny,

I'm not saying you need to agree with someone else's argument. I'm saying that you should make it a point to understand it.

You shouldn't assume that because I don't agree with you; that I don't understand what you are saying.

I don't assume. I KNOW that you don't understand, from your responses.

If that were the case, my replies would not make sense, and you would be able to explain WHY my replies do not make sense.

That's what we've been doing for the last 5 years!

Light dawns on Marblehead!

[PaulSacramento]

Paul,

You seem to be saying that we cannot discuss what is right, and what is wrong, unless we first acknowledge that things are in fact morally right or morally wrong. Which I agree with.

But, the issue is where morality comes from.

Someone like Kenny says that there is such a thing as morality, but it's not objective. Morality is in the human mind.

Oh, I know that is what he THINKS, though I am sure he doesn't ACT that way.

By that view, NOTHING is objective, including the very view that "morality is in the human mind".

[Kenny]

Paul,

You seem to be saying that we cannot discuss what is right, and what is wrong, unless we first acknowledge that things are in fact morally right or morally wrong. Which I agree with.

But, the issue is where morality comes from.

Someone like Kenny says that there is such a thing as morality, but it's not objective. Morality is in the human mind.

Oh, I know that is what he THINKS, though I am sure he doesn't ACT that way.

And how would my behavior be different if morality were subjective?

By that view, NOTHING is objective,

I've been very clear on what is objective, and what is subjective.

including the very view that "morality is in the human mind".

A quick look at the dictionary will tell you what is objective vs subjective.

[Kenny]

RickD

Do you believe all things are Objective? Or do you believe (like me) that some things are subjective, and some things are objective?

K

[RickD]

RickD

Do you believe all things are Objective? Or do you believe (like me) that some things are subjective, and some things are objective?

K

KennyG

Do you believe all people are Male? Or do you believe (like me) that some people are female, and some people are male?

R

[Kenny]

RickD

Do you believe all things are Objective? Or do you believe (like me) that some things are subjective, and some things are objective?

K

KennyG

Do you believe all people are Male? Or do you believe (like me) that some people are female, and some people are male?

R

Can you list 3 things (outside of religion or morality) that are subjective, and 3 things that is objective?

[RickD]

RickD

Do you believe all things are Objective? Or do you believe (like me) that some things are subjective, and some things are objective?

K

KennyG

Do you believe all people are Male? Or do you believe (like me) that some people are female, and some people are male?

R

Can you list 3 things (outside of religion or morality) that are subjective, and 3 things that is objective?

Where is this going?

[Kenny]

RickD

Do you believe all things are Objective? Or do you believe (like me) that some things are subjective, and some things are objective?

K

KennyG

Do you believe all people are Male? Or do you believe (like me) that some people are female, and some people are male?

R

Can you list 3 things (outside of religion or morality) that are subjective, and 3 things that is objective?

Where is this going?

I just want to make sure we're on the same page when it comes to what is objective vs subjective.

[PaulSacramento]

Paul,

You seem to be saying that we cannot discuss what is right, and what is wrong, unless we first acknowledge that things are in fact morally right or morally wrong. Which I agree with.

But, the issue is where morality comes from.

Someone like Kenny says that there is such a thing as morality, but it's not objective. Morality is in the human mind.

Oh, I know that is what he THINKS, though I am sure he doesn't ACT that way.

And how would my behavior be different if morality were subjective?

By that view, NOTHING is objective,

I've been very clear on what is objective, and what is subjective.

including the very view that "morality is in the human mind".

A quick look at the dictionary will tell you what is objective vs subjective.

Ken, you said that morality is subjective because it is in the mind, yes?
Well, everything is in the mind, including math and physics, right?

[PaulSacramento]

If we use the base, general, view of objective, that which relies solely on facts ( not influenced by feelings or opinions) and the basic definition of subjective: based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions.
By the way, they are called Objective because it deals with a thing ( object) and subjective because it deals with a person ( subject).
You then have to realize that one can NOT have a SUBJECTIVE view ( an opinion on something) without the OBJECTIVE view ( that there is something to have an opinion on).

[RickD]

If we use the base, general, view of objective, that which relies solely on facts ( not influenced by feelings or opinions) and the basic definition of subjective: based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions.
By the way, they are called Objective because it deals with a thing ( object) and subjective because it deals with a person ( subject).
You then have to realize that one can NOT have a SUBJECTIVE view ( an opinion on something) without the OBJECTIVE view ( that there is something to have an opinion on).

Paul,

I really don't see an issue with Kenny being able to argue for subjective morality, as far as your statement here:

one can NOT have a SUBJECTIVE view ( an opinion on something) without the OBJECTIVE view ( that there is something to have an opinion on.)

With your definition, the objective is morality. And his opinion is that morality is subjective. I don't think he's saying that morality doesn't exist. Kenny is saying that morality exists in the mind.

But I would like to hear Kenny's response to this:

Ken, you said that morality is subjective because it is in the mind, yes?
Well, everything is in the mind, including math and physics, right?

[Kenny]

If we use the base, general, view of objective, that which relies solely on facts ( not influenced by feelings or opinions) and the basic definition of subjective: based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions.
By the way, they are called Objective because it deals with a thing ( object) and subjective because it deals with a person ( subject).
You then have to realize that one can NOT have a SUBJECTIVE view ( an opinion on something) without the OBJECTIVE view ( that there is something to have an opinion on).

Paul,

I really don't see an issue with Kenny being able to argue for subjective morality, as far as your statement here:

one can NOT have a SUBJECTIVE view ( an opinion on something) without the OBJECTIVE view ( that there is something to have an opinion on.)

With your definition, the objective is morality. And his opinion is that morality is subjective. I don't think he's saying that morality doesn't exist. Kenny is saying that morality exists in the mind.

But I would like to hear Kenny's response to this:

Ken, you said that morality is subjective because it is in the mind, yes?
Well, everything is in the mind, including math and physics, right?

I don’t remember my exact response; but I doubt I would have said it was of the mind. I perhaps may have said it was based on your worldview; like your point of view, perceptions, beliefs, taking extenuating circumstances into consideration before judging; something like that. I don’t remember my exact words but it was probably akin to worldview. Obviously math and physics isn’t affected by my worldview, but my views on rape, racism, murder, or tolerance is.

It appears you’re uncomfortable with my questions (hence my inability to get a straight answer from ya) so let’s try it a different way. I will list 3 examples of objective and subjective, and you tell me if you agree

Subjective

*Taste- I prefer the taste of Strawberry Ice Cream over Vanilla
*Art- I believe Kevin A Williams is a better artist than Norman Rockwell
*Music - I believe Whitney Houston (BC) was the greatest singer of all time.

Objective

*Math- 1+1=2. Anybody who disagrees can be demonstrated as wrong
*Volume- A gallon is more than a quart; anybody who disagrees can be demonstrated as wrong
*Temperature- Water boils at 212 degrees F Anybody who disagrees can be demonstrated as wrong.

Do you agree?