Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural

[Storyteller]

Got ya!
I suppose, in theory, it's possible. Reminds me of an old documentary series by Joseph Campbell.. The hero with a thousand faces and The power of myth. He discusses why we, as humans, feel this need for myth, legend and how we strive to understand creation stories. How they may have come about. You might like it.

Ok.. so Yaweh may have been some supernatural being that was believed to be an alien.. but, if man was too primitive to grasp God as God, why would He be thought of as an alien, a supernatural being, rather than the creator.
Creation stories are as old as creation ... why Ken, why?

Put it this way.. if God exists, would He care what name you gave Him? Or just that you believe He is who He is.

Ken.
Do you deny creation?
Is everything that exists not created somehow?

[Byblos]

Where exactly did I say if you're not logical you can't be a Christian?

When you disagreed with me.

A person may not employ logic to be (or become) Christian

Great! Sounds like we agree. That's the only point I was trying to make.

No kenny, you don't get to chop off my entire response to your point, then quote a small part out of context and call it an agreement. We certainly do not agree. Your point was that logic and rationality are not needed, period, full stop. And my point is the exact opposite, a theist rests on the full knowledge that her faith is grounded in rationality much the same way newer mathematical theorems employ earlier ones without having to prove them all over again. One does not need to prove the Pythagorean theorem to compute the length of the hypotenuse given the length of the 2 sides. THAT is the point.

[Philip]

Ken: Just because a being might be supernatural and have power over people, that doesn't make that being God.

And that statement right there shows that Ken is determined not to believe in God, no matter what level of evidence he has. Now, of course, the theoretical supernatural being (above) might not be the God of the Bible - could even be a demon. But if the Supernatural Being called God is as described in the Bible were shown to exist - and same thing, has power over people - you'd not recognize Him as God???!!! What attributes must a supernatural being have for you to recognize it as god or God?

What I love about Ken, per the purposes of this forum, is he is very useful to exposing the tremendous illogic, contradictions, and absurdities of belief presented by atheists! He's like the poster child for atheism!

[Kenny]

Got ya!
I suppose, in theory, it's possible.

I'm glad you understood my point. One thing I like about discussing with you is you seem to grasp what I'm saying better than most around here. I think I've made this point to countless people here and you are the first to understand it. Most here think I'm crazy, I guess you can be a little crazy with me huh (LOL)

Reminds me of an old documentary series by Joseph Campbell.. The hero with a thousand faces and The power of myth. He discusses why we, as humans, feel this need for myth, legend and how we strive to understand creation stories. How they may have come about. You might like it.

Sounds very interesting. I remember a story during WW-2 when the US was looking for an island to be used as a jump off p9oint in order to attack Japan, and they found this island in the Pacific that was inhabited by primitive people. In order to curry favor wit the island people the US soldiers gave the island people chocolates, cakes, and other modern food they never tasted before, and the island people began to see and treat them as Gods due to their modern technology and strange food. When the war was over the military had no more use for the island or the people so they packed up and left. SA few weeks later someone familiar with the event flew over the island and saw the island people had built make-shift airplanes out of tree limbs in an effort to bring them back.

They say when Cortez came to what is now Mexico, the Incas thought them as Gods due to their technology; I guess primitive man has a history of perceiving those more technologically advanced as Gods when they see them

Ok.. so Yaweh may have been some supernatural being that was believed to be an alien.. but, if man was too primitive to grasp God as God, why would He be thought of as an alien, a supernatural being, rather than the creator.

Actually I was suggesting the opposite; that Yahweh was an alien thought to be God the creator.

Creation stories are as old as creation ... why Ken, why?

I think when mankind became intelligent enough, he began to wonder what, when, why and how concerning everything, even his history.

Put it this way.. if God exists, would He care what name you gave Him? Or just that you believe He is who He is.

Ken.
Do you deny creation?
Is everything that exists not created somehow?

The idea that something has always existed makes more sense to me than everything being created.

[RickD]

Kenny wrote:
The idea that something has always existed makes more sense to me than everything being created.

Praise the Lord! Kenny has seen the light!

He finally admits that it makes sense for an eternal God!

[Storyteller]

Got ya!
I suppose, in theory, it's possible.

I'm glad you understood my point. One thing I like about discussing with you is you seem to grasp what I'm saying better than most around here. I think I've made this point to countless people here and you are the first to understand it. Most here think I'm crazy, I guess you can be a little crazy with me huh (LOL)
I think everyonehere thinks youre crazy but thats ok because so am i..
I like discussing things with you too. You bring up points that make me question why i believe what i believe and thats a good thing.

Reminds me of an old documentary series by Joseph Campbell.. The hero with a thousand faces and The power of myth. He discusses why we, as humans, feel this need for myth, legend and how we strive to understand creation stories. How they may have come about. You might like it.

Sounds very interesting. I remember a story during WW-2 when the US was looking for an island to be used as a jump off p9oint in order to attack Japan, and they found this island in the Pacific that was inhabited by primitive people. In order to curry favor wit the island people the US soldiers gave the island people chocolates, cakes, and other modern food they never tasted before, and the island people began to see and treat them as Gods due to their modern technology and strange food. When the war was over the military had no more use for the island or the people so they packed up and left. SA few weeks later someone familiar with the event flew over the island and saw the island people had built make-shift airplanes out of tree limbs in an effort to bring them back.

They say when Cortez came to what is now Mexico, the Incas thought them as Gods due to their technology; I guess primitive man has a history of perceiving those more technologically advanced as Gods when they see them

[bYeah, i can understand that but] there are creation stories everywhere.. about Gods, aliens, all sorts. Even remote tribes have them.[/b]

Ok.. so Yaweh may have been some supernatural being that was believed to be an alien.. but, if man was too primitive to grasp God as God, why would He be thought of as an alien, a supernatural being, rather than the creator.

Actually I was suggesting the opposite; that Yahweh was an alien thought to be God the creator.
Wouldnt that still be atheism?

Creation stories are as old as creation ... why Ken, why?

I think when mankind became intelligent enough, he began to wonder what, when, why and how concerning everything, even his history.
Yes, but why?? (More a question to myself)

Put it this way.. if God exists, would He care what name you gave Him? Or just that you believe He is who He is.

Ken.
Do you deny creation?
Is everything that exists not created somehow?

The idea that something has always existed makes more sense to me than everything being created.
Something has always existed. The first cause.
Re everything being created.
Life itself is created is it not?

[Kenny]

Where exactly did I say if you're not logical you can't be a Christian?

When you disagreed with me.

A person may not employ logic to be (or become) Christian

Great! Sounds like we agree. That's the only point I was trying to make.

No kenny, you don't get to chop off my entire response to your point, then quote a small part out of context and call it an agreement. We certainly do not agree.[/quote]
Guilty as charged! I was trying to get you to quit while you were ahead, because I knew you would eventually go off track. But if you insist I will reply to your entire post.

Byblos
Where exactly did I say if you're not logical you can't be a Christian?
(Ken)
I said you don’t have to be logical to be Christian, and you are disagreeing with me.

(Byblos)
A person may not employ logic to be (or become) Christian but you can bet your bottom dollar logic and rationality are taken as a presupposition, intended or otherwise.

(Ken)
I never said it was not. What are you arguing about?

(Byblos)
For to deny logic and rationality is to deny God. The opposite is exactly true, to affirm theism one affirms (at least implicitly) logic and rationality. It is something not only you have never grasped but emphatically rejected on multiple occasions.

(Ken)
Ya see now you are just plain wrong. I never rejected anything like that. If you disagree, point out when I’ve ever said anything like that.

(Byblos)
Which is why it is fruitless to have such discussions with you.

(Ken)
Fruitless is when you insist on arguing about stuff I never said, and claiming I said stuff I did not.
Ya shoulda quit while you were ahead!

Your point was that logic and rationality are not needed, period, full stop. And my point is the exact opposite, a theist rests on the full knowledge that her faith is grounded in rationality much the same way newer mathematical theorems employ earlier ones without having to prove them all over again. One does not need to prove the Pythagorean theorem to compute the length of the hypotenuse given the length of the 2 sides. THAT is the point.

And what if the theist is not smart or educated enough to have his faith grounded in rationality the same way newer mathematical theorems employ earlier ones? Suppose he only has faith? Does this mean he can't be Christian? Is faith alone not good enough?

[Kenny]

Ken: Just because a being might be supernatural and have power over people, that doesn't make that being God.

And that statement right there shows that Ken is determined not to believe in God, no matter what level of evidence he has. Now, of course, the theoretical supernatural being (above) might not be the God of the Bible

Oh so according to you, the God of the bible is not the only God? What are some of these other Gods you speak of?

- could even be a demon.

Oh so demons are now God's too?

But if the Supernatural Being called God is as described in the Bible were shown to exist - and same thing, has power over people - you'd not recognize Him as God???!!!

Is this another example of accusing me of saying things that I did not say? A lot of that going around here lately...

What attributes must a supernatural being have for you to recognize it as god or God?

I remember discussing with RickyD (I think it was him) about how some people worship the Sun, Nature, and various people as real as you and I as God. He responded by listing at least a half dozen attributes that are required to be God; none of which could be applied to the Sun, nature, or various people as real as you and I. I don't remember everything on the list he provided, but I'm quite certain that list did not include [size=150 DEMONS!!!
Perhaps you can get with him to retrieve that list, it might answer your question.

[Kenny]

Kenny wrote:
The idea that something has always existed makes more sense to me than everything being created.

Praise the Lord! Kenny has seen the light!

How many times have I told you this? You really don't listen to me do you.

He finally admits that it makes sense for an eternal God!

Something existing eternally does not equal eternal God,

[Kenny]

Got ya!
I suppose, in theory, it's possible.

I'm glad you understood my point. One thing I like about discussing with you is you seem to grasp what I'm saying better than most around here. I think I've made this point to countless people here and you are the first to understand it. Most here think I'm crazy, I guess you can be a little crazy with me huh (LOL)
I think everyonehere thinks youre crazy but thats ok because so am i..
I like discussing things with you too. You bring up points that make me question why i believe what i believe and thats a good thing.

Reminds me of an old documentary series by Joseph Campbell.. The hero with a thousand faces and The power of myth. He discusses why we, as humans, feel this need for myth, legend and how we strive to understand creation stories. How they may have come about. You might like it.

Sounds very interesting. I remember a story during WW-2 when the US was looking for an island to be used as a jump off p9oint in order to attack Japan, and they found this island in the Pacific that was inhabited by primitive people. In order to curry favor wit the island people the US soldiers gave the island people chocolates, cakes, and other modern food they never tasted before, and the island people began to see and treat them as Gods due to their modern technology and strange food. When the war was over the military had no more use for the island or the people so they packed up and left. SA few weeks later someone familiar with the event flew over the island and saw the island people had built make-shift airplanes out of tree limbs in an effort to bring them back.

They say when Cortez came to what is now Mexico, the Incas thought them as Gods due to their technology; I guess primitive man has a history of perceiving those more technologically advanced as Gods when they see them

[bYeah, i can understand that but] there are creation stories everywhere.. about Gods, aliens, all sorts. Even remote tribes have them.[/b]

Ok.. so Yaweh may have been some supernatural being that was believed to be an alien.. but, if man was too primitive to grasp God as God, why would He be thought of as an alien, a supernatural being, rather than the creator.

Actually I was suggesting the opposite; that Yahweh was an alien thought to be God the creator.
Wouldnt that still be atheism?

Creation stories are as old as creation ... why Ken, why?

I think when mankind became intelligent enough, he began to wonder what, when, why and how concerning everything, even his history.
Yes, but why?? (More a question to myself)

Put it this way.. if God exists, would He care what name you gave Him? Or just that you believe He is who He is.

Ken.
Do you deny creation?
Is everything that exists not created somehow?

The idea that something has always existed makes more sense to me than everything being created.
Something has always existed. The first cause.
Re everything being created.
Life itself is created is it not?

(Storyteller)
I think everyonehere thinks youre crazy but thats ok because so am i..
I like discussing things with you too. You bring up points that make me question why i believe what i believe and thats a good thing.

(Ken)
Thank-you.

(Storyteller)
Yeah, i can understand that but] there are creation stories everywhere.. about Gods, aliens, all sorts. Even remote tribes have them.

(Ken)
True. I think the propensity to ask questions is a part of being intelligent.

(Storyteller)
Something has always existed. The first cause.

(Ken)
Cause/Causes

(Storyteller)
Re everything being created.
Life itself is created is it not?

(Ken)
True. But it’s created by already existing life sources.

[RickD]

Storyteller wrote:
I think everyonehere thinks youre crazy but thats ok because so am i..
I like discussing things with you too. You bring up points that make me question why i believe what i believe and thats a good thing.

Fwiw,

I don't think Kenny is crazy.

Storyteller, on the other hand...

[Storyteller]

(Ken)
True. But it’s created by already existing life sources

Exactly!
Kenny... think about exactly what you just typed.

[Storyteller]

Storyteller wrote:
I think everyonehere thinks youre crazy but thats ok because so am i..
I like discussing things with you too. You bring up points that make me question why i believe what i believe and thats a good thing.

Fwiw,

I don't think Kenny is crazy.

Storyteller, on the other hand...

Does

[Philip]

Ken - my point about a supernatural beings are that demons are such beings - course they aren't God or gods - but according to the Bible they can masquerade as such, deceiving people into believing that false gods are real - just as demonic power empowered Pharaoh's magicians, or they oppress or possess people. But GOD - THE God, has control and power over everything He has created - which everything that exists has come from.

Again, what attributes of a supernatural Being would it take for you to recognize Him as God? What if He is unlike what YOU think He should be?

[Kenny]

(Ken)
True. But it’s created by already existing life sources

Exactly!
Kenny... think about exactly what you just typed.

What is there to think about?