Atheist question

[zacchaeus]

Here we go guys.
Since this has been asked numerous times in different ways I figured I would post this question from a discussion with an atheist.
This format is laid out best.

You say that Jesus died in both our places.
By "His wounds we are healed”.

Have you ever really thought about the story itself?
God is supposed to be all-knowing right?
So he creates Adam in his image and then makes Eve out of Adam's rib.
If God is all-knowing, he knew that Adam and Eve would disobey him, correct? What's moral about blaming mankind for a crime (and I use that word very, very loosely) that God knew they would commit?

This genius god couldn't think of a better way to forgive mankind than to send himself to Earth as his alter ego Jesus, have himself hideously tortured and killed so that he could forgive himself for something he knew would happen anyway? Really?

The best part is that this sacrifice (sacrifice implies something was lost, but really, what was lost?) eliminates your responsibility for being a moral person.

This is the part that bothers me the most about Christianity. It offers instant and undeserved forgiveness for the most despicable of crimes.
Joshua Blahyi (Google him) killed more than 20,000 people including cutting out the hearts of little children and eating their hearts before battle.
He has since become “saved”.
Your god finds him worthy of eternal salvation, yet someone like Bill Gates or Warren Buffett who give billions (billions with a “B”) of dollars to help millions of those less fortunate will spend eternity in hell right next to me.

What is our crime?
The answer is disbelief.
We don't believe in Jesus and haven't accepted him as "our savior".
Do you think this framework is the perfect example of love and moral accountability?

If I were to say that Jesus is a “scapegoat”, would you know what that means in Jewish historical context?
Do you believe that someone like Blahyi deserves heaven?
More importantly (and more telling), which type of person would you rather have more of on our planet: people like Blahyi or people like Gates, Buffett, and me? Seriously – consider this.
According to your faith, every serial killer on death row who professes faith in Jesus is ushered into eternity while someone like me will burn in a lake of fire.
That's loving? That's morality?
What lesson are we to learn from this?
How can you have morality without accountability?

[Fliegender]

Your atheist is just angry. A lot of anger comes through in the account above. Walk away from him just as you would walk away from a Westboro Baptist carrying a sign saying GOD HATES [homosexuals]

Reason leaves when anger is present. Debate is pointless.

[abelcainsbrother]

There is nothing evil or bad about God knowing mankind would sin and him having a plan in place in case they did.There is nothing evil or bad about God not asking us to do anything he would not do himself.God did for us what we could not do.If he rejects Jesus as his Savior then yes Jesus has the right to reject him too.Fair is fair.God is the judge not your atheist friend. Jesus made salvation so easy that anybody who rejects salvation Jesus offers deserves to go to hell imo.

How can he really be concerned about the evil in our world and choose to remain an atheist where they get away with it? One of the reasons for believing in Jesus is because of judgment day,yet they just get away with their evil if atheism were true. So the atheist is not really concerned about the evil he brings up like Christians are and we cannot wait for judgment day.

Tell the atheist to stop acting like evil in the world really bothers him because nothing would be done about it if atheism were true so that if he is a moral person he could not really remain an atheist knowing that these evil people would just get away with it.Actions speak louder than words do and we want justice from God for the evil in our world and we're going to have it.This is a good reason to believe in Jesus besides many other reasons too.

Then ask him for proof and evidence atheism is true. Challenge him to prove he is right about atheism with evidence it is true.Point out atheism is the only group in the world that thinks they do not need any evidence they are correct.Point out no other group in the world thinks like this.Atheism is the most empty of all other world views out there,even if he/she does not become a Christian.

[Kenny]

Here we go guys.
Since this has been asked numerous times in different ways I figured I would post this question from a discussion with an atheist.
This format is laid out best.

You say that Jesus died in both our places.
By "His wounds we are healed”.

Have you ever really thought about the story itself?
God is supposed to be all-knowing right?
So he creates Adam in his image and then makes Eve out of Adam's rib.
If God is all-knowing, he knew that Adam and Eve would disobey him, correct? What's moral about blaming mankind for a crime (and I use that word very, very loosely) that God knew they would commit?

This genius god couldn't think of a better way to forgive mankind than to send himself to Earth as his alter ego Jesus, have himself hideously tortured and killed so that he could forgive himself for something he knew would happen anyway? Really?

The best part is that this sacrifice (sacrifice implies something was lost, but really, what was lost?) eliminates your responsibility for being a moral person.

This is the part that bothers me the most about Christianity. It offers instant and undeserved forgiveness for the most despicable of crimes.
Joshua Blahyi (Google him) killed more than 20,000 people including cutting out the hearts of little children and eating their hearts before battle.
He has since become “saved”.
Your god finds him worthy of eternal salvation, yet someone like Bill Gates or Warren Buffett who give billions (billions with a “B”) of dollars to help millions of those less fortunate will spend eternity in hell right next to me.

What is our crime?
The answer is disbelief.
We don't believe in Jesus and haven't accepted him as "our savior".
Do you think this framework is the perfect example of love and moral accountability?

If I were to say that Jesus is a “scapegoat”, would you know what that means in Jewish historical context?
Do you believe that someone like Blahyi deserves heaven?
More importantly (and more telling), which type of person would you rather have more of on our planet: people like Blahyi or people like Gates, Buffett, and me? Seriously – consider this.
According to your faith, every serial killer on death row who professes faith in Jesus is ushered into eternity while someone like me will burn in a lake of fire.
That's loving? That's morality?
What lesson are we to learn from this?
How can you have morality without accountability?

Who are these questions addressed to; Atheists or Theists?

[Kenny]

Your atheist is just angry. A lot of anger comes through in the account above. Walk away from him just as you would walk away from a Westboro Baptist carrying a sign saying GOD HATES [homosexuals]

Reason leaves when anger is present. Debate is pointless.

Angry or not, they are legitimate questions; it would be interesting to see how they would be answered.

[zacchaeus]

The question is from a dialogue thread between us where he poses these questions. Its an atheist employing us Christians, any Christian to answer.
I suppose I posted it in wrong section... I'm not sure. Lol. It can be moved where needed. Thanks.

[Fliegender]

...

Angry or not, they are legitimate questions; it would be interesting to see how they would be answered.

The questions may be “legitimate” but they are asked with a loaded tone which assures that it is pointless to answer. Example: two cars are in a minor fender bender...one driver gets out and asks the other, “What’s wrong with you? Where did you learn to drive? Have you had your eyesight checked, moron?”

Don’t waste your time with people like that.

[RickD]

Zacchaeus,

I'd ask if he believes that rape and forced love, is real love.

God wants us to choose to be with Him in eternity. God loves us, not because any of us deserves His love, but because of who He is.

If someone doesn't want to love Him, God's not going to force anyone to be with Him eternally.

Hell is eternal separation from God's love.

[DBowling]

Zacchaeus,

I'd ask if he believes that rape and forced love, is real love.

God wants us to choose to be with Him in eternity. God loves us, not because any of us deserves His love, but because of who He is.

If someone doesn't want to love Him, God's not going to force anyone to be with Him eternally.

Hell is eternal separation from God's love.

I'm not sure I'd phrase it exactly the same way Rick did, but Rick is correct...
The reason a good/moral God allows evil in the world is "Love".

God desires (for whatever reason) to have a genuine love relationship with his image bearers (ie us).
However, one of the requirements for a genuine love relationship with someone is the ability to either accept or reject that person's love.
And the ability of mankind to choose to reject God is the root of all evil.

God desired a genuine love relationship with Adam and Eve, so he gave them a choice to accept a loving God as God or to reject God and become their own 'gods'.
They chose to be their own 'gods'.
God knew what Adam and Eve would choose before they made their choice. But even before they chose to reject him, God knew the price that would be required to bring his rebellious image bearers into a genuine loving relationship with him.
And God knew that he would be the only One who could pay the price.

John 3:16 says it beautifully...
For God loved the world so much, that he gave his One and Only Son, so that whoever believes in him would not perish but have everlasting life.

[Storyteller]

I keep getting drawn back to this post. I never knew how to answer them, saw them as a stumbling block in explaining my faith. I think, maybe, because they are the kind of questions I struggled with. So Myra Hindley is in heaven yet the dear little old lady down the road goes to hell because they didn't find the proof they needed?

What struck me, reading this thread, is that I was looking at it the wrong way.

God knew he would be rejected.. knew the sacrifice he would have to make.. yet still did it. Still gave us a way back to him...


Personally, I believe that God doesn't decide who goes to hell, we choose... by rejecting him.

He gave us free will. He gave us choice. He gave us salvation. Every single one of us.

Think of sin as not hitting the bullseye, none of us hit the bullseye, we all miss. You may be closer to the bullseye but you still "sin"

[Kenny]

I keep getting drawn back to this post. I never knew how to answer them, saw them as a stumbling block in explaining my faith. I think, maybe, because they are the kind of questions I struggled with. So Myra Hindley is in heaven yet the dear little old lady down the road goes to hell because they didn't find the proof they needed?

What struck me, reading this thread, is that I was looking at it the wrong way.

God knew he would be rejected.. knew the sacrifice he would have to make.. yet still did it. Still gave us a way back to him...


Personally, I believe that God doesn't decide who goes to hell, we choose... by rejecting him.

He gave us free will. He gave us choice. He gave us salvation. Every single one of us.

Think of sin as not hitting the bullseye, none of us hit the bullseye, we all miss. You may be closer to the bullseye but you still "sin"

If you make someone without the ability to hit the bullseye, why make that the requirement?

[Storyteller]

I keep getting drawn back to this post. I never knew how to answer them, saw them as a stumbling block in explaining my faith. I think, maybe, because they are the kind of questions I struggled with. So Myra Hindley is in heaven yet the dear little old lady down the road goes to hell because they didn't find the proof they needed?

What struck me, reading this thread, is that I was looking at it the wrong way.

God knew he would be rejected.. knew the sacrifice he would have to make.. yet still did it. Still gave us a way back to him...


Personally, I believe that God doesn't decide who goes to hell, we choose... by rejecting him.

He gave us free will. He gave us choice. He gave us salvation. Every single one of us.

Think of sin as not hitting the bullseye, none of us hit the bullseye, we all miss. You may be closer to the bullseye but you still "sin"

If you make someone without the ability to hit the bullseye, why make that the requirement?

I disagree that we don't have the ability. Just because we don't do it doesn't mean we don't have the ability.

[RickD]

I keep getting drawn back to this post. I never knew how to answer them, saw them as a stumbling block in explaining my faith. I think, maybe, because they are the kind of questions I struggled with. So Myra Hindley is in heaven yet the dear little old lady down the road goes to hell because they didn't find the proof they needed?

What struck me, reading this thread, is that I was looking at it the wrong way.

God knew he would be rejected.. knew the sacrifice he would have to make.. yet still did it. Still gave us a way back to him...


Personally, I believe that God doesn't decide who goes to hell, we choose... by rejecting him.

He gave us free will. He gave us choice. He gave us salvation. Every single one of us.

Think of sin as not hitting the bullseye, none of us hit the bullseye, we all miss. You may be closer to the bullseye but you still "sin"

If you make someone without the ability to hit the bullseye, why make that the requirement?

To show that we CANNOT hit the bullseye. To show that we CANNOT keep the law. To show the need for a mediator between us and a perfect God. One who fulfills the law.

The Old Testament law was given to show that man cannot keep the law. Remember, to fail at any point, was to fail at keeping the law. The point of Old Testament law, was ultimately to point us to the need for a savior.

Think of the Old Testament law as a kind of "picture" of Christ. Now that we have Christ, why would we still need the picture. Like, if we were away from our love, and we kept a picture of him/her, to remind us until we meet again in person. Once we meet our love in person, we no longer need the picture as a reminder.

[Kenny]

I keep getting drawn back to this post. I never knew how to answer them, saw them as a stumbling block in explaining my faith. I think, maybe, because they are the kind of questions I struggled with. So Myra Hindley is in heaven yet the dear little old lady down the road goes to hell because they didn't find the proof they needed?

What struck me, reading this thread, is that I was looking at it the wrong way.

God knew he would be rejected.. knew the sacrifice he would have to make.. yet still did it. Still gave us a way back to him...


Personally, I believe that God doesn't decide who goes to hell, we choose... by rejecting him.

He gave us free will. He gave us choice. He gave us salvation. Every single one of us.

Think of sin as not hitting the bullseye, none of us hit the bullseye, we all miss. You may be closer to the bullseye but you still "sin"

If you make someone without the ability to hit the bullseye, why make that the requirement?

I disagree that we don't have the ability. Just because we don't do it doesn't mean we don't have the ability.

So he made us with the ability to hit the bullseye, just not with the desire to hit it?

[Kenny]

I keep getting drawn back to this post. I never knew how to answer them, saw them as a stumbling block in explaining my faith. I think, maybe, because they are the kind of questions I struggled with. So Myra Hindley is in heaven yet the dear little old lady down the road goes to hell because they didn't find the proof they needed?

What struck me, reading this thread, is that I was looking at it the wrong way.

God knew he would be rejected.. knew the sacrifice he would have to make.. yet still did it. Still gave us a way back to him...


Personally, I believe that God doesn't decide who goes to hell, we choose... by rejecting him.

He gave us free will. He gave us choice. He gave us salvation. Every single one of us.

Think of sin as not hitting the bullseye, none of us hit the bullseye, we all miss. You may be closer to the bullseye but you still "sin"

If you make someone without the ability to hit the bullseye, why make that the requirement?

To show that we CANNOT hit the bullseye. To show that we CANNOT keep the law. To show the need for a mediator between us and a perfect God. One who fulfills the law.

The Old Testament law was given to show that man cannot keep the law. Remember, to fail at any point, was to fail at keeping the law. The point of Old Testament law, was ultimately to point us to the need for a savior.

Think of the Old Testament law as a kind of "picture" of Christ. Now that we have Christ, why would we still need the picture. Like, if we were away from our love, and we kept a picture of him/her, to remind us until we meet again in person. Once we meet our love in person, we no longer need the picture as a reminder.

So rather than making us independent, with the ability to hit the bullseye on our own, he chose to make us dependent on him, thus always needing him.