Why? Because

Fortigurn · Post by **Fortigurn** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 7:04 pm

Jbuza wrote:What translation are you using?

The New English Translation, a standard evangelical translation with a standard evangelical theology.

From Young's

18I said in my heart concerning the matter of the sons of man that God might cleanse them, so as to see that they themselves [are] beasts.

19For an event [is to] the sons of man, and an event [is to] the beasts, even one event [is] to them; as the death of this, so [is] the death of that; and one spirit [is] to all, and the advantage of man above the beast is nothing, for the whole [is] vanity.

20The whole are going unto one place, the whole have been from the dust, and the whole are turning back unto the dust.

21Who knoweth the spirit of the sons of man that is going up on high, and the spirit of the beast that is going down below to the earth?

I'm afraid that Young's is a translation which is woodenly literal, and inaccurate as a result (it's also around 100 years old). Check modern translations, and you'll see they agree with the NET.

Fortigurn · Post by **Fortigurn** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 7:07 pm

Jbuza wrote:So do you believe that we cease to exist when we die like the animals, or do you believe that the animals will be judged also?

Yes I believe that we cease to exist when we die like the animals. I also believe that we will be raised to judgment:

Ecclesiastes 12:
14 For God will evaluate every deed, including every secret thing, whether good or evil.

Daniel 12:
2 Many of those who sleep in the dusty ground will awake— some to everlasting life, and others to shame and everlasting abhorrence.

Matthew 10:
14 And if anyone will not welcome you or listen to your message, shake the dust off your feet as you leave that house or that town.
15 I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for the region of Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town!

Matthew 7:
21 “Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the kingdom of heaven—only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
22 On that day, many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, and in your name cast out demons and do many powerful deeds?'
23 Then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you. Go away from me, you lawbreakers!'

Mathew 11:
22 But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you!
23 And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? No, you will be thrown down to Hades! For if the miracles done among you had been done in Sodom, it would have continued to this day.
24 But I tell you, it will be more bearable for the region of Sodom on the day of judgment than for you!”

Matthew 12:
36 I tell you that on the day of judgment, people will give an account for every worthless word they speak.
37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

1 John 4:
17 By this love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment, because just as Jesus is, so also are we in this world.

Matthew 12:
41 The people of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented when Jonah preached to them—and now, something greater than Jonah is here!
42 The queen of the South will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon—and now, something greater than Solomon is here!

2 Peter 2:
9 …the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from their trials, and to reserve the unrighteous for punishment at the day of judgment…

2 Peter 3:
7 But by the same word the present heavens and earth have been reserved for fire, by being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

The Bible consistenly speaks of judgment as a time yet in the future, which takes place at the return of Christ and the resurrection of the dead.

This precludes the idea that we are judged at our death, and our 'immortal souls' are placed in 'heaven' or 'hell'.

Jbuza · Post by **Jbuza** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 7:11 pm

This Body is going to Die, but God promises eternal life. How do you harmonize this with the belief that Man has no immortal soul?

What would make modern translations more accurate?

Fortigurn · Post by **Fortigurn** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 7:21 pm

Jbuza wrote:This Body is going to Die, but God promises eternal life. How do you harmonize this with the belief that Man has no immortal soul?

Actually the question is how do you harmonise this with the idea that man has an immortal soul? How can I promise you something you already have?

According to standard 'orthodoxy', men are immortal spirit beings created by God, who are then sent to inhabit a shell of flesh for a temporary duration, after which they leave that habitation for another.

The answer to 'How can we receive eternal life if our body dies?', is resurrection, as I have said:

Job 19:
26 And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God,
27 whom I will see for myself, and whom my own eyes will behold, and not another.

Daniel 12:
2 Many of those who sleep in the dusty ground will awake— some to everlasting life, and others to shame and everlasting abhorrence.

Matthew 19:
28 Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth: In the age when all things are renewed, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
29 And whoever has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.

Luke 14:
13 But when you host an elaborate meal, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, and the blind.
14 Then you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you, for you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”

Acts 24:
15 I have a hope in God (a hope that these men themselves accept too) that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.

Hebrews 6:
1 Therefore we must progress beyond the elementary instructions about Christ and move on to maturity, not laying this foundation again: repentance from dead works and faith in God,
2 teaching about baptisms, laying on of hands, resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.

Hebrews 11:
35 …But others were tortured, not accepting release, to obtain resurrection to a better life.

What would make modern translations more accurate?

A superior translation methodology for a start, and a more accurate handling of the original languages (usually the result of a better understanding of them).

Jbuza · Post by **Jbuza** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 7:47 pm

A superior translation methodology for a start, and a more accurate handling of the original languages (usually the result of a better understanding of them).

I can understand that. Aren't we getting further and further away from the actual language of that day? Seems like some of the earliest translations would be more accurate. Don't really know, but I do know that I have a holy gift from the Holy One so that I can test to see if something is of God (1 John 20-24)

Jbuza · Post by **Jbuza** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 8:36 pm

I was reading passage in 1 Corinthians 15 that seems relevant to the question.

44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body; there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body;

45so also it hath been written, `The first man Adam became a living creature,' the last Adam [is] for a life-giving spirit,

46but that which is spiritual [is] not first, but that which [was] natural, afterwards that which [is] spiritual.

Fortigurn · Post by **Fortigurn** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 9:07 pm

Jbuza wrote:I can understand that. Aren't we getting further and further away from the actual language of that day? Seems like some of the earliest translations would be more accurate.

On the contrary, we have been getting closer. We're dealing with ancient languages, which can only be understood in their literary and historical context.

Early translators didn't have half of the literature and context we now have. We have a great deal more literature which enables us to understand how certain words were used by the Hebrews and Greeks.

Don't really know, but I do know that I have a holy gift from the Holy One so that I can test to see if something is of God (1 John 20-24)

Does that mean you can translate the Bible yourself, or that you can determine whether or not a Bible translation is accurate?

If so, I forsee a very lucrative career ahead of you.

Jbuza · Post by **Jbuza** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 9:38 pm

Fortigurn wrote:On the contrary, we have been getting closer. We're dealing with ancient languages, which can only be understood in their literary and historical context.

Early translators didn't have half of the literature and context we now have. We have a great deal more literature which enables us to understand how certain words were used by the Hebrews and Greeks.

Don't really know, but I do know that I have a holy gift from the Holy One so that I can test to see if something is of God (1 John 20-24)
Does that mean you can translate the Bible yourself, or that you can determine whether or not a Bible translation is accurate?

If so, I forsee a very lucrative career ahead of you.

I can see how perhaps gathering many owrks written contemporary to the Bible could result in more accurate translations, but doesn't God have some influence on his word?

I think that I can know if something is of God, because of the Spirit. IT certianly isn't from my own wisdom, because the things of God are foolishness to the flesh. I certianly can't know the things of God without direction from God can I?

Fortigurn · Post by **Fortigurn** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 9:45 pm

Jbuza wrote:I can see how perhaps gathering many owrks written contemporary to the Bible could result in more accurate translations, but doesn't God have some influence on his word?

God has already had an influence on His Word - He caused it to be written in the languages in which we find it in the original language manuscripts.

I do not believe that God is personally involved in any English translation today, or any translation today at all in fact.

I think that I can know if something is of God, because of the Spirit. IT certianly isn't from my own wisdom, because the things of God are foolishness to the flesh. I certianly can't know the things of God without direction from God can I?

No you can't know the things of God without direction from God. But the Bible enables you to know the things of God without the Holy Spirit, and allows you to discern the truth of those who claim to be speaking a Divinely inspired message (see the Bereans).

Jbuza · Post by **Jbuza** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 10:24 pm

Fortigurn wrote:No you can't know the things of God without direction from God. But the Bible enables you to know the things of God without the Holy Spirit, and allows you to discern the truth of those who claim to be speaking a Divinely inspired message (see the Bereans).

1 John 5 says that we have the witness within ourselves, and that the witness is three in one. The Spirit, the Water, and the Blood and they agree in one.

1 John 2 says we have an anointing that abideth within us and that we need not be taught of any man, but that the anointing within us teacheth us all things and is the truth.

2 Peter 1 says that no prophecy is of private interpretation.

I do not agree I am quite sure without the Spirit of God this would all be foolishness to me.

Fortigurn · Post by **Fortigurn** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 10:47 pm

Jbuza wrote:
Fortigurn wrote:No you can't know the things of God without direction from God. But the Bible enables you to know the things of God without the Holy Spirit, and allows you to discern the truth of those who claim to be speaking a Divinely inspired message (see the Bereans).
1 John 5 says that we have the witness within ourselves, and that the witness is three in one. The Spirit, the Water, and the Blood and they agree in one.

I find that 1 John 5:6 does not say that the witness we have within ourselves is 'the Spirit, the Water, and the Blood', and that these are 'three in one'.

1 John 2 says we have an anointing that abideth within us and that we need not be taught of any man, but that the anointing within us teacheth us all things and is the truth.

That was true of the apostles. It is not true of us (see the Ethiopian eunuch and the Bereans for example).

2 Peter 1 says that no prophecy is of private interpretation.

By which he means that no prophecy of the Scriptures originated from men.

I do not agree I am quite sure without the Spirit of God this would all be foolishness to me.

I suggest that the example of the Bereas demonstrates that the Holy Spirit is not necessary to understand the Scriptures. Certainly the Ethiopian eunuch wasn't told any such thing by Philip.

Jbuza · Post by **Jbuza** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 10:51 pm

Fortigurn wrote: I find that 1 John 5:6 does not say that the witness we have within ourselves is 'the Spirit, the Water, and the Blood', and that these are 'three in one'.

Sorry, I'll try to start putting the actual verse in their. What do you make of 5:8

So is it your view that we are some watered down version of Christianity, and that no longer have gifts?

I know what I know, and I know it isn't from myself.

Fortigurn · Post by **Fortigurn** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 11:11 pm

Jbuza wrote:
Fortigurn wrote: I find that 1 John 5:6 does not say that the witness we have within ourselves is 'the Spirit, the Water, and the Blood', and that these are 'three in one'.

Sorry, I'll try to start putting the actual verse in their. What do you make of 5:8

This?

8 the Spirit and the water and the blood, and these three are in agreement.

Exactly what it says.

So is it your view that we are some watered down version of Christianity, and that no longer have gifts?

I don't see that an absence of the gifts constitutes a 'watered down version of Christianity'. On the contrary, Paul connected the passing away of the gifts with a growing maturity.

I know what I know, and I know it isn't from myself.

Same here. I read the Bible.

Jbuza · Post by **Jbuza** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 11:19 pm

Well sort of I meant this

Youngs
because three are who are testifying [in the heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these -- the three -- are one;
8and three are who are testifying in the earth], the Spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three are into the one.

KJV
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one

Jbuza · Post by **Jbuza** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 11:20 pm

I don't see that an absence of the gifts constitutes a 'watered down version of Christianity'. On the contrary, Paul connected the passing away of the gifts with a growing maturity.

Where?