Is salvation Given or is it earned?

[RickD]

one problem with the death Part, it directly apposes the "Thou shalt not Kill" commandment.. the death in question is a spiritual death and yes this goes for the "The wages of sin is death" quote by Paul... God would not command you to brake the commandments neither would the Holy Spirit... So no I do not kill people because they brake the commandments, that is not for me to judge, if they brake the commandments they have to atone for them on judgement day. Hence the new covenant.. The evil done in the mosaic law, which means any law that directly or indirectly goes against the Commandments of God is not a law of God... This is why God asked me if my faith was in Him or in the bible because God would never order you to go against his commandments... people can bring up the battles all they want but God would be condemning his own to damnation and rendering his Laws null and void if he asked you to do that which is against what he commanded... If his laws were null and void then why would Jesus have kept them and instructed his followers to do the same as well as why would the apostles teach them??
I know I'm rambling but gave specifics in the commandments he placed into stone and then into us...

exodus 20:8-11 "8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."

it is not for us to render punishment God is the only one who can do that...

So, I'll take that as a big NO, you do not observe the Sabbath as commanded.
Please tell me that at the very least, you observe the Sabbath from sundown on Friday, to sundown on Saturday? I hope you're not one of those who changes the sabbath to Saturday.

So, now that we've established that you do not properly observe the sabbath, that means that you do not keep the 10 commandments without fail. And you know what scripture says about failing to keep the law, even failing once?

It means you are guilty of failing to keep the entire law!

So, what does someone who thinks salvation is earned, do when he fails to keep the law?

Does that mean you lose salvation?

[LonnieOwesn1973]

killing of someone is breaking the commandment there is nothing in the 10 commandments that says kill those who do not obey me. properly observing would mean to worship God and rest on His day...

if you go By Mosaic Law and not the 10 commandments then no I haven't you are correct, but what I do keep is the 10 commandments in which God gave with his own hand written into stone..

so I ask you, is it ok to Kill someone in the name of God even if you know it is wrong to do according to his commandments???

[RickD]

killing of someone is breaking the commandment there is nothing in the 10 commandments that says kill those who do not obey me. properly observing would mean to worship God and rest on His day...

if you go By Mosaic Law and not the 10 commandments then no I haven't you are correct, but what I do keep is the 10 commandments in which God gave with his own hand written into stone..

so I ask you, is it ok to Kill someone in the name of God even if you know it is wrong to do according to his commandments???

The 10 commandments are a part of mosaic law.

God gave a specific way to keep His commandments. Who are you to change the way God wants them observed?

Is your way better than God's way?

It's not OK for people to change the sabbath to Sunday, but Lonnie can tell God how you're going to observe His sabbath?

[DBowling]

so I ask you, is it ok to Kill someone in the name of God even if you know it is wrong to do according to his commandments???

Here's what Jesus says...
Matthew 5:21-26

21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

23 “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, 24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift.

25 “Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26 Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

Jesus' concern is the heart attitude of anger and hatred that leads people to commit murder.

[RickD]

Not to mention the fact that the law demanded that people were to be killed for breaking the sabbath in certain ways.

God instituted the sabbath rules. Who are you to just change them, because you think certain parts, like death punishment, are no longer valid?

You claim that the commandments apply to us, so you need to follow the commandments, as God instituted them.

I thought you said the commandments were easy to follow.

[LonnieOwesn1973]

Not to mention the fact that the law demanded that people were to be killed for breaking the sabbath in certain ways.

God instituted the sabbath rules. Who are you to just change them, because you think certain parts, like death punishment, are no longer valid?

You claim that the commandments apply to us, so you need to follow the commandments, as God instituted them.

I thought you said the commandments were easy to follow.

and they are easy to follow... and God instituted them into stone exactly how he wanted them followed... so where, in the 10 commandments does it state to kill those who disobey God???

[RickD]

lonnie wrote:
and they are easy to follow... and God instituted them into stone exactly how he wanted them followed...

Really? When I read in Exodus 20, where the 10 commandments are listed, the list doesn't include instructions for obeying them. You must look elsewhere in scripture to see how they were to be obeyed. The list gives a command about honoring the sabbath, but no specifics on how to.

so where, in the 10 commandments does it state to kill those who disobey God???

Look in the link here:
http://www.letusreason.org/7thAd4.htm

Each one has scripture references, showing you.

Besides the punishment of death that you don't hold to, what about the other specifics listed, that show exactly what you cannot do?

Are you following them exactly as God instituted?

[LonnieOwesn1973]

why would you need a list of things you cannot do on the sabbath when is says plainly in Exodus rest, do no work and keep holy.... If you cannot discern the meaning of this then what is the point of it.... Don't work, rest and commune with God enjoying all that God has created...

now if you want to Judaize people you will hold them to Mosaic Law but gentiles are not Jews and are not held to Mosaic law...

Why do people always want to judaize people when, since we are not of Jewish birth, we are not to be held under Jewish Law... Even the Jews don't follow Mosaic Law anymore... haven't for a very long time actually....

God instituted what not to do in Exodus so yes I follow them... if I were I jew and uder Jewish Law then I would have to follow Jewish Law...

This is the Problem, people always place mosaic law and the law of God as one for everyone when they are not... and people actually don't pay attention to the fact that God would never ask anyone to Kill for him... Abraham was before the commandments were handed down... so when a Law is in place that contradicts the supreme Law then said law is obsolete... who seriously thinks that we should kill those who break the sabbath commandment???...

seriously, in what dimension does God ask man to kill for him???

[RickD]

why would you need a list of things you cannot do on the sabbath when is says plainly in Exodus rest, do no work and keep holy.... If you cannot discern the meaning of this then what is the point of it.... Don't work, rest and commune with God enjoying all that God has created...

now if you want to Judaize people you will hold them to Mosaic Law but gentiles are not Jews and are not held to Mosaic law...

Why do people always want to judaize people when, since we are not of Jewish birth, we are not to be held under Jewish Law... Even the Jews don't follow Mosaic Law anymore... haven't for a very long time actually....

God instituted what not to do in Exodus so yes I follow them... if I were I jew and uder Jewish Law then I would have to follow Jewish Law...

This is the Problem, people always place mosaic law and the law of God as one for everyone when they are not... and people actually don't pay attention to the fact that God would never ask anyone to Kill for him... Abraham was before the commandments were handed down... so when a Law is in place that contradicts the supreme Law then said law is obsolete... who seriously thinks that we should kill those who break the sabbath commandment???...

seriously, in what dimension does God ask man to kill for him???

Do your eyes hurt?

The irony is glaring!

I won't even respond. Your post speaks for itself. It's a lot easier for me, when you're making my argument. I just hope you see it.

[RickD]

So, after reading your minichat post, apparently you don't see the irony. I guess I'll have to point it out to you.

You are accusing me of judaizing, yet you are the one who says that believers need to follow the 10 commandments. The 10 commandments are part of the mosaic covenant. So YOU are the one Trying to get believers to hold to the mosaic law!

How this escapes you, baffles me.

I'm not telling you that you need to kill people that don't properly observe the sabbath. I'm trying to show you that by you NOT killing people, and by you NOT observing the sabbath as God instructed, you aren't observing the sabbath at all! You are christianizing the sabbath, to your own liking, and you're following some man made sabbath.

You can't follow the sabbath as God instructed, because you're not an ancient Israelite.

Why do you fail to understand this?

[LonnieOwesn1973]

So, after reading your minichat post, apparently you don't see the irony. I guess I'll have to point it out to you.

You are accusing me of judaizing, yet you are the one who says that believers need to follow the 10 commandments. The 10 commandments are part of the mosaic covenant. So YOU are the one Trying to get believers to hold to the mosaic law!

How this escapes you, baffles me.

I'm not telling you that you need to kill people that don't properly observe the sabbath. I'm trying to show you that by you NOT killing people, and by you NOT observing the sabbath as God instructed, you aren't observing the sabbath at all! You are christianizing the sabbath, to your own liking, and you're following some man made sabbath.

You can't follow the sabbath as God instructed, because you're not an ancient Israelite.

Why do you fail to understand this?

First and foremost, God never told anyone to put anyone to death he said " Hell shall be put to death." show me where God has told anyone to kill another person because they broke the sabbath law? it must inclue " Tou Shalt or You Shall" that is a direct command telling someone to do something...

and if the commandments were for the Jews only then they would be of the mind that they should kill anyone in their congregation who breaks a commandment of God. A non Jew would notice right away that murder"Kiling someone" is against the commandment of God a jew would have to obey the death commandment... sorry but unless you are jewish the mosaic Law does not apply to you but the 10 commandments are for all people...

[LonnieOwesn1973]

Levitacus 24:17 "And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death."
Exodus 21:12 "He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death."

So if anyone kills or murders another man or causes another man to die should be killed as well ... So I ask, is it ok to kill or murder in the name of God? God would never condone the breaking of his commandments...

[LonnieOwesn1973]

and by your way of thinking, Jesus, who was a jew from birth, should have killed those who did not obey the sabbath commandment. and he kept the commandments of God perfectly. He was not exempt from Gods authority in fact the only reason he was crucified was because the Jews thought he was breaking the commandments of God for healing on the sabbath, which is considered work, his apostles were hungry and plucked corn and ate it, which is work..

So if Jesus Kept the commandments of God and did not "murder" those who broke the commandment then, as Christians, followers of Christ, we are to be as he was... so that would not be judaizing that would be following Christ and his teachings and teaching others to do the same...

[RickD]

Lonnie wrote:
First and foremost, God never told anyone to put anyone to death he said " Hell shall be put to death." show me where God has told anyone to kill another person because they broke the sabbath law? it must inclue " Tou Shalt or You Shall" that is a direct command telling someone to do something...

Lonnie,

You're just wrong. I even underlined it for you.

Numbers 15

32 Now while the sons of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering wood on the sabbath day. 33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and to all the congregation; 34 and they put him in custody because it had not been declared what should be done to him. 35 Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” 36 So all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him to death with stones, just as the Lord had commanded Moses.

The commandment from God was to stone the man for gathering wood on the sabbath!

Let me say it again. GOD COMMANDED THAT THE MAN BE STONED FOR BREAKING THE SABBATH LAW!

So as I see it, you have two options.

1) you must obey God's commandment to stone those who break the sabbath law. Remember, you're the one who is advocating for following the sabbath.

Or

2) realize that observing the sabbath was for the nation of Israel. And it has NEVER been meant for Christians to follow.

[Philip]

While there ARE instructions per Christs and His apostles that echo the 10 commandments, Sabbath-keeping is not one of them.

Colossians 2: 16Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.

Romans 14: 5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God.

Never once did the apostles instruct new believers to keep the Jewish Sabbath - unthinkable if they were expected to do so!

But what day did the apostles and believer meet and break bread together: The FIRST day of the week - not that it was a certain day they commanded:

Sunday: (Acts 20:7; 1 Corinthians 16:2)

As for the importance of The Law: (Acts 20:7; 1 Corinthians 16:2)

What was the period that anyone would be under The Law?

Galatians 3:19 (NASB) Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, UNTIL the seed should come to whom the promise had been made.

Who is the Seed? CHRIST!

Hebrews 8:13 (NASB) When He said, "A NEW covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to DISAPPEAR.

NO one is under the covenant of The Law today. Sabbath-keeping is a rule ONLY under the Mosaic Law!