God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?

[DBowling]

and so by him writing his laws within us, explain how something that he has written within us is to decay??

I never said it did...

And Scripture never says that the 10 Commandments are written within us either.
So yet again, one of your primary arguments is based on an unScriptural premise.

you can give me all the scripture you want that describes the covenant,

And yes... I will continue to base my arguments on what the Holy Spirit inspired Word of God says.
And yes... I will base my position on what Scripture says (Hebrews 8:13) about the current status of the first Covenant that God made with the House of Israel when he took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt.

I will continue to Keep the commandments of God as instructed by Christ and God almighty...

That's the real problem here...
You are not keeping the commandments of God as instructed by Christ and God almighty.

The unfortunate fact of the matter is (like the Pharisees of old) you are elevating the unScriptural traditions of men over the Holy Spirit inspired Word of God.

[LonnieOwesn1973]

ok so again I ask you who did Jesus Kill? elevating no scriptural would be the pope who decided it was ok to move the sabbath from Saturday to Sunday because there is absolutely no evidence of that anywhere in the Bible... So again how can the Laws of God be invalid if he thought it necessary to place them within US? no my argument is based on common sense and the knowledge of history... if Jesus Kept the sabbath and the commandments of God, without killing anyone, then explain to me how the laws would vanish from within us??? and if He placed them in side us then we already know Him and do not need the written word of the commandments "The Laws" taught to us because they are already a part of us...

who did Jesus kill?

[DBowling]

ok so again I ask you who did Jesus Kill?

I never said he did...
I really don't know what that has to do with whether or not the 10 Commandments are part of the Old Covenant that God made with Israel in Exodus 19-24

elevating no scriptural would be the pope who decided it was ok to move the sabbath from Saturday to Sunday

I'm not Roman Catholic, so what some pope may or may not have done has nothing to do with my position.
My position is based on Scripture.
And the Sabbath was never moved from Saturday to Sunday.

So again how can the Laws of God be invalid if he thought it necessary to place them within US?

I will repeat my earlier answer...
The Laws of God that are placed within us are not invalid.

And I will repeat my related question that you have yet to answer.
What Scripture do you have to support your assertion that the 10 Commandments are the "Laws of God that are placed within us"?

[LonnieOwesn1973]

by the defining of Paul what the law of God is...
Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Romans 2:20-23 20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.

21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?

22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?

23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?...

So if they Laws of God were not the 10 commandments then what are they???

and Jesus said in Mathew 19:17-19 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

So at what point is the Law not to be followed nor is it to be applied to salvation when Jesus himself said to obey them and that he did not come to destroy the Law...

Because if the old covenant contained the commandments and God saw fit to write them in our heart and our inward parts then what scripture gives anyone the right to disobey the Laws of God?

[DBowling]

by the defining of Paul what the law of God is...
Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Romans 2:20-23 20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.

21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?

22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?

23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?...

So if they Laws of God were not the 10 commandments then what are they???

I believe that Paul is referring to the Law of Moses (or Old Covenant) in all the verses you quote above

and Jesus said in Mathew 19:17-19 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Ah... but here's the "rest of the story"
Matthew 19:20-24

20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”

21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

The point that Jesus is making is that "keeping the law" does not make a person perfect.
Back in the Sermon on the Mount in Mat 5 Jesus teaches that it is heart attitudes that really matter.

So at what point is the Law not to be followed nor is it to be applied to salvation when Jesus himself said to obey them and that he did not come to destroy the Law...

But Jesus did come to fulfill the Law, and as Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8 tell us that he came to establish a New Covenant to replace the Old Covenant that God made with Moses in Exodus 19-24.

Because if the old covenant contained the commandments and God saw fit to write them in our heart and our inward parts then what scripture gives anyone the right to disobey the Laws of God?

Again you still haven't given any Scripture to support your assertion that the laws written our hearts are the Old Covenant.
Do you think the sacrificial laws of the Old Covenant are written in our inward parts?
Do you think the dietary laws of the Old Covenant are written in our inward parts?
Do you think the purification laws of the Old Covenant are written in our inward parts?
Do you think the Jewish feast laws of the Old Covenant are written in our inward parts?
Do you think the circumcision laws of the Old Covenant are written in our inward parts?

And one final quick comment...
None of the New Testament passages you mention above mention keeping the Sabbath.

[LonnieOwesn1973]

by the defining of Paul what the law of God is...
Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Romans 2:20-23 20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.

21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?

22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?

23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?...

So if they Laws of God were not the 10 commandments then what are they???

I believe that Paul is referring to the Law of Moses (or Old Covenant) in all the verses you quote above

and Jesus said in Mathew 19:17-19 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Ah... but here's the "rest of the story"
Matthew 19:20-24

20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”

21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

The point that Jesus is making is that "keeping the law" does not make a person perfect.
Back in the Sermon on the Mount in Mat 5 Jesus teaches that it is heart attitudes that really matter.

So at what point is the Law not to be followed nor is it to be applied to salvation when Jesus himself said to obey them and that he did not come to destroy the Law...

But Jesus did come to fulfill the Law, and as Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8 tell us that he came to establish a New Covenant to replace the Old Covenant that God made with Moses in Exodus 19-24.

Because if the old covenant contained the commandments and God saw fit to write them in our heart and our inward parts then what scripture gives anyone the right to disobey the Laws of God?

Again you still haven't given any Scripture to support your assertion that the laws written our hearts are the Old Covenant.
Do you think the sacrificial laws of the Old Covenant are written in our inward parts?
Do you think the dietary laws of the Old Covenant are written in our inward parts?
Do you think the purification laws of the Old Covenant are written in our inward parts?
Do you think the Jewish feast laws of the Old Covenant are written in our inward parts?
Do you think the circumcision laws of the Old Covenant are written in our inward parts?

And one final quick comment...
None of the New Testament passages you mention above mention keeping the Sabbath.

no because they we already Kept as was their custom...

[DBowling]

Again you still haven't given any Scripture to support your assertion that the laws written our hearts are the Old Covenant.
Do you think the sacrificial laws of the Old Covenant are written in our inward parts?
Do you think the dietary laws of the Old Covenant are written in our inward parts?
Do you think the purification laws of the Old Covenant are written in our inward parts?
Do you think the Jewish feast laws of the Old Covenant are written in our inward parts?
Do you think the circumcision laws of the Old Covenant are written in our inward parts?

no because they we already Kept as was their custom...

Sorry... but I don't even know what you mean with that comment.
And again you are making assertions with no Scriptural support.

But you appear to be saying in your answer above that not all of the Old Covenant or the Mosaic Law (such as sacrificial laws, circumcision laws, etc) is written on our inward parts.
(And I happen to agree with statement)
Am I understanding you correctly?

That would mean that those Old Covenant laws that are not written on our inward parts are not applicable under the New Covenant.
Do you agree with that statement?

[LonnieOwesn1973]

I am only saying it this way as a means of clarification not as an means to confound lol...

The Laws of God that are written within us are the 10 commandments which are God's laws and only 10 not the other 603 laws that were put into place for those born a Jew from Flesh birth...

If Jesus mentions the commandments without the first 6 it is because, at the time of his Life on earth, all who he spoke to on the commandments were already in observance of the commandments... the first 6 are detrimental to the very foundation to either the Jewish Faith or the Christian faith.

God rested on the 7th day and this is the day He commanded all His children to remember and keep holy.

I do hope that this explained what I was saying...

[DBowling]

The Laws of God that are written within us are the 10 commandments which are God's laws and only 10 not the other 603 laws that were put into place for those born a Jew

That is an unScriptural statement.
And the reason your whole argument is unScriptural is because your argument is built on an unScriptural premise.

Since you are unable to support your argument from Scripture, I will go to Scripture and demonstrate that your premise is exactly the opposite of what Scripture says.

Hebrews 8:6-13 will make it all clear.

7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said:
“The days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
9 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.
10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”
13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

This passage of Scripture discusses two covenants, the Old Covenant (First Covenant) and the New Covenant.

Let's start by looking at which covenant is written on our hearts.
This is what Hebrews 8:10 says about the New Covenant "I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts."
So according to Scripture it is the New Covenant that is written on our hearts.

Now let's look at the Old (or first) Covenant.
Hebrews 8:9 tells us that the Old Covenant is "the covenant that God made with their ancestors when he took them by the hand lead them out of Egypt"
One of the Scriptural accounts of the covenant that God made with Israel when he led them out of Egypt is found in Exodus 19-24. The 10 Commandments are found in Exodus 20.
So according to Scripture the 10 Commandments (Exodus 20) are part of the Old (first) Covenant that God made with Israel when he led them out of Egypt

Hebrews 8:9 also tells us that it.
The New Covenant is "not like" the Old (first) Covenant
==>
The New Covenant IS written on our hearts.
The Old Covenant IS NOT written on our hearts.

Since the 10 Commandments are part of the Old Covenant that God made with Israel when he led them out of Egypt, then according to Scripture the 10 Commandments are not the laws written on our hearts.

Now since God's Moral law transcends the Old Covenant then God's Moral laws would be written on our hearts under the New Covenant.
And any of the 10 Commandments that are part of God's Moral law would transcend the Old Covenant.
But any of the 10 Commandments that are part of Jewish ceremonial law would not transcend the Old Covenant and have become obsolete and outdated.

Paul gives specific guidance in the verses below for the Sabbath and worship days.
Colossians 2:16-17

16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

Romans 14:5

5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind.

Paul explicitly says that we shouldn't judge other brothers and sisters in Christ in regards to the Sabbath or other religious festivals.
If we choose one day as more sacred we should be convinced in our own minds but we should not judge others who consider different days to be more sacred.

So if someone is convinced in their mind to worship on the Sabbath, we shouldn't judge them for that.
If someone is convinced in their mind to worship on the first day of the week, we shouldn't judge them for that either.

[RickD]

Lonnie wrote:
The Laws of God that are written within us are the 10 commandments which are God's laws and only 10 not the other 603 laws that were put into place for those born a Jew from Flesh birth...

You keep asserting this, yet you haven't shown any scripture that backs your assertion.
Please post scripture that says that the 10 commandments are written within us.

Lonnie wrote:
If Jesus mentions the commandments without the first 6 it is because, at the time of his Life on earth, all who he spoke to on the commandments were already in observance of the commandments... the first 6 are detrimental to the very foundation to either the Jewish Faith or the Christian faith.

I have no idea what this even means. Now you're arguing that the first 6 of the 10 commandments are detrimental to to the foundation of either the Jewish faith or the Christian faith?

Lonnie wrote:
God rested on the 7th day and this is the day He commanded all His children to remember and keep holy.

Please define "all His children", and show from scripture where God commanded "all His children" to remember the 7th day and keep it holy.

Lonnie,

You need to clear these things up if we can move forward in this discussion.

[RickD]

In light of something that Lonnie posted in minichat, I'm afraid that this discussion is basically irrelevant.

RickD wrote:
This Jesus guy, if I'm not mistaken, seems like God in the flesh.

Lonnie wrote:
seriously. this Jesus guy???... if paul thought jesus was God in the flesh then why did he refer to him as a man amd jesus never once claimed to be God in the flesh only the Son of God.

We cannot possibly have a discussion regarding the role that the 10 commandments have in a believer's life, when one of us believes in a false Christ.

Maybe the discussion needs to shift to a more important topic.

Thoughts?

[RickD]

Opened a new thread for discussion:
Is Jesus God. And Why it Matters.
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=43210&p=247928#p247928

[PaulSacramento]

I think the issue with following or not following the 10 commandments is a simple one"
The Sabbath.
It comes down to that.
Why? Will because no other commandment has, according to some ( Paul for example), been made obsolete and what I mean is this:
Nowhere will you find that we are no longer to:

You shall have no other gods before Me. - This still applies
You shall make no idols. - This still applies
You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. - This still applies

Keep the Sabbath day holy. - HERE is the one that is controversial to some.

Honor your father and your mother. - Still applies
You shall not murder. - Still Applies
You shall not commit adultery. - Still Applies
You shall not steal. - Still Applies
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. - Still Applies
You shall not covet. - Still applies.


Lets be honest here, the issue is the Sabbath.

[RickD]

Paul,

The issue is the 10 commandments, as a whole.

We ought not murder, not because the 10 commandments says so. The 10 commandments say do not murder because we are to love our brother.

We don't need to follow the 10 commandments, to know that we ought not murder our neighbor.

[PaulSacramento]

Paul,

The issue is the 10 commandments, as a whole.

We ought not murder, not because the 10 commandments says so. The 10 commandments say do not murder because we are to love our brother.

We don't need to follow the 10 commandments, to know that we ought not murder our neighbor.

Of course but you realize that the issue is that, those the believe that the 10 Commandments are in place for all believers, believe that the sabbath is still in place.You may not need the 10 commandments to know it is wrong to murder and steal, but what about the sabbath?