Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

[LonnieOwesn1973]

Plenty of thoughts actually...

A false Christ would be one that would place himself on the same level and Jesus did no such thing.

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, touch me not: for I have not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend to my Father, and your Father, my God and your God.

Matthew 27:46 and about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, la-ma sa-bach-tha-ni? that is to say, My God , My God, WHY HAST THOU FORSAKEN ME?

Matthew 3:17 and lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my Son, in whom I am well pleased.

and what did Jesus say to the devil in Matthew 4:10 The Jesus saith unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the LORD thy God, and only him shalt thou serve.

Now if Jesus was God why would he speak of himself in a third person?

Show me one scripture where Jesus makes a claim that he is God in the flesh because according to Christ, God is a spirit ..

John 4:24 God is a spirit: and they that worship hi must worship him in spirit and in truth.

[LonnieOwesn1973]

started if off with the last comment I posted I see....

[LonnieOwesn1973]

Just remember only scripture where Jesus states he is God as this is the question I asked in this post...
I am open to all scripture but the scripture where Jesus states he is God is where I would like to begin....

remember be respectful of others and non judgemental...

We are all Children of God here so let us act in such a manner please...

[LonnieOwesn1973]

Ok over the years I have heard that Jesus was God but I could never be convinced of it through Scripture more specifically by the words of Christ himself.

From what I have read, I have found no scripture where Jesus has ever claimed to be God, in fact he always claimed to be the Son of man of the Son of God.

Satan himself never considered Jesus to be God as during the temptations of Christ, Satan referred to Jesus as the Son of God.

After the Baptism of Christ God spoke and said "Behold my beloved son in whom I am well pleased"

There are many verses where Jesus clarifies that what he does and what he say are not of him but of the Father who sent him.

the reason it matters is because if Christ was God then those who say that we do not have to obey the commandments would be denying the authority of God... If Jesus observed the sabbath, as was his custom, and we know that this is a commandment of God, God would definitely know which day the Sabbath day was because he is the one who declared if from creation.

So it is important to the Christian faith to consider this because if not then we are all lost...

If Jesus is God then let us figure it out together...

[RickD]

I think it would be more productive if we focus on one passage at a time. When we come to an understanding, we can move on.

When it comes to Jesus himself, claiming to be God there are a number of verses available.
Let's start with John 5:17-18:

17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”

18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

Edit:
This comes from an interesting story. Jesus is using the sabbath to teach them that God is working on the sabbath(verse 17), and they don't call God a lawbreaker. So, when Jesus works on the Sabbath he is not breaking the Law of Moses because He and God are the same.

[LonnieOwesn1973]

no he was not using the sabbath to teach anything... he healed on the sabbath day and nothing more... God may rest on the sabbath day then he is there for them... but there is still not anything in that scripture where Jesus claims to be God. it cannot be construed as such nor did the scripture preceeding it mention him being God... as for the healing on the sabbath Matthew 12:12 12 How much more valuable then is a man than a sheep! So then, it is lawful to do [a]good on the Sabbath. Jesus healed everyday of the week not just the sabbath... and to tell the man to take up his bedroll and walk was a gesture of good will because he knew the man would be overjoyed enough that he would have done it anyway..

scripture that Jesus states that he is God because the scripture you just gave, Jesus refers only to the father...

[DBowling]

Does Jesus ever claim to be God?
Yes... actually a number of times.

One of the most blatant incidents can be found in John 8:56-59 when Jesus refers to himself as I AM.

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”
57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

So why did the Jews want to stone Jesus when he referred to himself as I AM.
Exodus 3:13-14 tells us why

13 Moses said to God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ Then what shall I tell them?”
14 God said to Moses, “I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I am has sent me to you.’”

I AM is the name God gave Moses when Moses asked God what his name was.

Jesus identified himself with the very same name (I AM) that God used to identify himself with at the Burning Bush.

Does the Holy Spirit inspired Word of God ever identify Jesus as God?
Once again Yes... many times.

John 1 is one of the key passages in God's Word that explicitly states that Jesus is God.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
...
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

The Word of God is pretty explicit here...
The Word was with God
The Word was God
All things were made through the Word
The Word became flesh

And lest there is any question about who made all things, the first verse in God's Word should clear that up
Genesis 1:1

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Why does it matter?
The Divinity of Jesus is directly related to Jesus being the object of saving faith.

In the Old Testament who is the object of saving faith?
Genesis 15:6 tells us

6 Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

The Lord (Yahweh) is identified in God's Word as the object of saving faith?

In the New Testament who is the object of Saving faith.
Romans 3:22

22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,

Jesus is the object of saving faith for New Testament believers because he is the very same God who was the object of saving faith for Abraham and the other Old Testament saints.

[LonnieOwesn1973]

plus by your way of thinking, if God works on the sabbath day, then why would anyone worship a God that would go back on his own word?

being realistic and looking at it from all angles.... and why would Jesus tell everyone to keep the commandments if he did not keep them either?

and the Jews sought to kill Jesus because he had done things on the sabbath day... therefore there is no implication, by anyone, that Jesus and God were one in the same..

Sorry my internet was flaking out when I sent the last one so I finished up with this one...

[LonnieOwesn1973]

ok ok lol... good one and I will do my best to explain as was shown to me in the manner it was shown.... so bear with me on this....

[DBowling]

Speaking of the Sabbath...
Here is another claim by Jesus to mull over.
Matthew 12:1-9

At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. 2 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.”

3 He answered, “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4 He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5 Or haven’t you read in the Law that the priests on Sabbath duty in the temple desecrate the Sabbath and yet are innocent? 6 I tell you that something greater than the temple is here. 7 If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

Who is Lord of the Sabbath again?

[LonnieOwesn1973]

ok before I get into my explanation....

"Jesus identified himself with the very same name (I AM) that God used to identify himself with at the Burning Bush." What verse Please.. so I can be sure to answer correctly... we will get into the other verses as they come because so far there still isn't anything being stated that Jesus has said he was God.

yes I am being open minded and yes if I am wrong in my beliefs I will admit it in a heart beat...

[LonnieOwesn1973]

yall have convinced me of one thing but it is not the Jesus was God, because you still have yet to produce scripture where Jesus claimed to be God... the one thing you have managed to convince me of is that God never really wanted us to Keep his commandments.... Now I get to figure out what I will do from here on out... shall I continue to listen to God or do I leave well enough alone???

[DBowling]

ok before I get into my explanation....

"Jesus identified himself with the very same name (I AM) that God used to identify himself with at the Burning Bush." What verse Please.. so I can be sure to answer correctly...

The passages are listed in my post... here they are again

One of the most blatant incidents can be found in John 8:56-59 when Jesus refers to himself as I AM.

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”
57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

So why did the Jews want to stone Jesus when he referred to himself as I AM.
Exodus 3:13-14 tells us why

13 Moses said to God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ Then what shall I tell them?”
14 God said to Moses, “I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I am has sent me to you.’”

I AM is the name God gave Moses when Moses asked God what his name was.

Jesus identified himself with the very same name (I AM) that God used to identify himself with at the Burning Bush.

we will get into the other verses as they come because so far there still isn't anything being stated that Jesus has said he was God.

Excuse me????
Jesus refers to himself as I AM
And Jesus refers to himself as "Lord of the Sabbath"
And Rick gave another example from John 5... and if you go down a few more verses in John 5 Jesus drops this doosie
John 5:23

23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

So you already have a handful of examples where Jesus claims to be God.

And then of course you have to figure out a way to deal with the clear and unambiguous claim by the Word of God in John 1.

yes I am being open minded and yes if I am wrong in my beliefs I will admit it in a heart beat...

The sooner the better on this one...
This one is a biggie!!!

[RickD]

yall have convinced me of one thing but it is not the Jesus was God, because you still have yet to produce scripture where Jesus claimed to be God... the one thing you have managed to convince me of is that God never really wanted us to Keep his commandments.... Now I get to figure out what I will do from here on out... shall I continue to listen to God or do I leave well enough alone???

How did you come to that conclusion?

[LonnieOwesn1973]

Jesus and God working on the sabbath day....