Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

[DBowling]

Lonnie, you've been given a lot to consider. My suggestion would be to ponder it, write down questions - but most importantly - you should ask God to reveal the truth of this matter about Jesus to you. God wants you to know the truth about it.

so I take it no one is willing to even consider where I am coming from from what was shown to me...

If I have to choose between...
- where you are coming from
- where the Word of God is coming from
- and where Jesus is coming from

As a follower of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, I have to give priority to what the Holy Spirit inspired Word of God says and what Jesus says about himself over where ANY person is coming from.

[LonnieOwesn1973]

Lonnie, you've been given a lot to consider. My suggestion would be to ponder it, write down questions - but most importantly - you should ask God to reveal the truth of this matter about Jesus to you. God wants you to know the truth about it.

so I take it no one is willing to even consider where I am coming from from what was shown to me...

If I have to choose between...
- where you are coming from
- where the Word of God is coming from
- and where Jesus is coming from

As a follower of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, I have to give priority to what the Holy Spirit inspired Word of God says and what Jesus says about himself over where ANY person is coming from.

So in to you it is either your way or no way at all???? Just trying to clarify here....

if you are trying to teach someone how they are wrong then point out how they are wrong by the scripture they are using to validate their beliefs...

Furthermore here is something for you to ponder ...

If you come from your mother and father does that make you either of them????

when Jesus said to Honor thy mother and thy father did he mean to worship them or to respect them???

you see, there is absolutely no scripture given where Jesus even alludes to the fact that he is God... we can draw assumptions all we want but at the end of the day if Jesus never states he is God then where is the foundation on the belief other than assumption????

I know there will be those who think I am being mean, but when I give a scripture I generally give the reason why I believe it means...

So please treat me with the same respect that I have given you....

[LonnieOwesn1973]

ok ok I can see where this is Going and it is understandable...

Jesus didn't save anyone God does the saving.... john 5:34 But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved.

so let me get this straight... Jesus is God even though he never claimed to be.... and no one takes into account Matthew 3:27 or Matthew 27:46 ??? am I correct that none of you even considered at least these two verses because what you have shown me speaks of Jesus and God being two not one...

[LonnieOwesn1973]

Lets talk about dishonoring Christ as you see him shall we...

being a Christian means to be a follower of Christ, let look at what Christ did.

As was his custom he worshiped on the sabbath, which has never been changed by Christ of any apostles, which has been Saturday... SO how are you Honoring his doctrine and his Life example by choosing to worship on a day other than the sabbath day???.. Now remember Paul and all of the people Paul spoke to worshiped on Sabbath....

If Christ believed in one God then do people place him on the same level as God???

If Christ did good on the sabbath day then why did the Jews go about to kill him?

just a couple of questions off the top of my head....

[LonnieOwesn1973]

If Jesus is God then why is it you do not what he says to do????

Luke 6:46-49 46 “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? 47 Everyone who comes to Me and hears My words and [c]acts on them, I will show you whom he is like: 48 he is like a man building a house, who [d]dug deep and laid a foundation on the rock; and when a flood occurred, the [e]torrent burst against that house and could not shake it, because it had been well built. 49 But the one who has heard and has not acted accordingly, is like a man who built a house on the ground without any foundation; and the [f]torrent burst against it and immediately it collapsed, and the ruin of that house was great.

interesting that you believe he s God and yet you do not the simplest of things he has asked.

John 14:15 If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

[RickD]

Here Lonnie, I fixed it for you:

Lonnie wrote:
you see, there is absolutely no scripture given where Jesus even alludes to the fact that he is God...Now I see that my lack of understanding the verses that Jesus explicitly says he is God, is not the same as there not being any verses that Jesus says he is God. and we can draw assumptions all we want but at the end of the day if Jesus never states he is God then where is the foundation on the belief other than assumption????I was confusing my lack of understanding, with a lack of proof.

That's ok Lonnie. We're trying to be patient, while we explain this to you. There's a lot to take in, and everyone learns at a different pace. What's important is the fact that you really are open to who Christ is, and what that means for your salvation.

[LonnieOwesn1973]

a different pace maybe but not out of chastisement and berating.... Sorry if no one will even consider how I came to my conclusions and only post theirs then it is a one sided conversation and a constant beat down, so to speak... where is the respect in trying to understand where another is coming from without acknowledging their thought process??? Beat down was a bit harsh but I can't think of anything nicer... not trying to offend honest...

[DBowling]

Lonnie, you've been given a lot to consider. My suggestion would be to ponder it, write down questions - but most importantly - you should ask God to reveal the truth of this matter about Jesus to you. God wants you to know the truth about it.

so I take it no one is willing to even consider where I am coming from from what was shown to me...

If I have to choose between...
- where you are coming from
- where the Word of God is coming from
- and where Jesus is coming from

As a follower of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, I have to give priority to what the Holy Spirit inspired Word of God says and what Jesus says about himself over where ANY person is coming from.

So in to you it is either your way or no way at all???? Just trying to clarify here....

Not at all!
My way doesn't really matter that much...
What really matters is what the Word of God teaches.

if you are trying to teach someone how they are wrong then point out how they are wrong by the scripture they are using to validate their beliefs...

That is exactly what I try to do.
I repeatedly point to what Scripture says.
That is why I quote Scripture so much to support my position.

If I can point people to what Scripture says then that is all I can do.

you see, there is absolutely no scripture given where Jesus even alludes to the fact that he is God...

Again... You keep repeating the same false statement over and over again...
Even after we have presented multiple Scriptures where Jesus claims to be God
Mat 12:8, John 8:58, John 5:23, etc...

And then there are other Scriptures such as John 1:1-3 and Phil 2:5-11 where the Word of God clearly states that Jesus is God.

So I am more than happy to discuss the many Scriptures that state that Jesus is God.
And I believe I have done so in this thread.

But if you continue to deny that such Scriptures exist even after they are laid out before you... multiple times, then Its hard for me to believe that you are really interested in what Scripture teaches about the Divinity of Jesus.

[Kurieuo]

Remember Jesus is God and God has no equals.

Couldn't have set it better myself.

[LonnieOwesn1973]

Remember Jesus is God and God has no equals.

Couldn't have set it better myself.

don't quote just half of the statement... if you are gonna do it do it right and quote the question that went before that as well... that wasn't the answer lol

[Kurieuo]

You clearly just said Jesus is God. Or, are you here surmising Jesus is god, but not God?

[DBowling]

Let me wrap up one loose end that hasn't really been addressed yet

Do you deny that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath? (Matthew 12:8) no

You got this one right
But you still haven't answered the question
Who is Lord of the Sabbath?

Since Lonnie won't answer the question "Who is Lord of the Sabbath?" let's see what Scripture has to say.
Exodus 16:23
He said to them, “This is what the Lord commanded: ‘Tomorrow is to be a day of sabbath rest, a holy sabbath to the Lord.
Exodus 16:25
“Eat it today,” Moses said, “because today is a sabbath to the Lord.
Exodus 16:29
Bear in mind that the Lord has given you the Sabbath;
Exodus 20:10
but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God.
Exodus 20:11
Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
Leviticus 19:30
Observe my Sabbaths and have reverence for my sanctuary. I am the Lord.
Deuteronomy 5:14
but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God.
Deuteronomy 5:15
the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.

According to the Mosaic Law, the LORD of the Sabbath was Yahweh.

So when Jesus claims to be Lord of the Sabbath in Matthew 12: 8, Jesus was claiming to be Yahweh.
Just like Jesus was claiming to be Yahweh in John 8:58 when he referred to himself as "I AM".

So we have two verses, Matthew 12:8 and John 8:58, where Jesus not only claims to be God, but He also claims to be Yahweh.

And these aren't the only two places in Scripture where Jesus is equated with Yahweh.
It happens again in John 12:39-41

39 For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:
40 “He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turn—and I would heal them.”
41 Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about him.

When did Isaiah see Jesus' glory?
Isaiah 6:1-5

In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple. 2 Above it stood seraphim; each one had six wings: with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. 3 And one cried to another and said:
“Holy, holy, holy is the Lord (Yahweh) of hosts;
The whole earth is full of His glory!”
4 And the posts of the door were shaken by the voice of him who cried out, and the house was filled with smoke.
5 So I said:
“Woe is me, for I am undone!
Because I am a man of unclean lips,
And I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips;
For my eyes have seen the King,
The Lord (Yahweh) of hosts.”

Whose glory did Isaiah see in Isaiah 6:1-5
Yes... Isaiah saw the glory of Yahweh.

[LonnieOwesn1973]

Let me wrap up one loose end that hasn't really been addressed yet

Do you deny that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath? (Matthew 12:8) no

You got this one right
But you still haven't answered the question
Who is Lord of the Sabbath?

Since Lonnie won't answer the question "Who is Lord of the Sabbath?" let's see what Scripture has to say.
Exodus 16:23
He said to them, “This is what the Lord commanded: ‘Tomorrow is to be a day of sabbath rest, a holy sabbath to the Lord.
Exodus 16:25
“Eat it today,” Moses said, “because today is a sabbath to the Lord.
Exodus 16:29
Bear in mind that the Lord has given you the Sabbath;
Exodus 20:10
but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God.
Exodus 20:11
Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
Leviticus 19:30
Observe my Sabbaths and have reverence for my sanctuary. I am the Lord.
Deuteronomy 5:14
but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God.
Deuteronomy 5:15
the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.

According to the Mosaic Law, the LORD of the Sabbath was Yahweh.

So when Jesus claims to be Lord of the Sabbath in Matthew 12: 8, Jesus was claiming to be Yahweh.
Just like Jesus was claiming to be Yahweh in John 8:58 when he referred to himself as "I AM".

So we have two verses, Matthew 12:8 and John 8:58, where Jesus not only claims to be God, but He also claims to be Yahweh.

And these aren't the only two places in Scripture where Jesus is equated with Yahweh.
It happens again in John 12:39-41

39 For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:
40 “He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turn—and I would heal them.”
41 Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about him.

When did Isaiah see Jesus' glory?
Isaiah 6:1-5

In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple. 2 Above it stood seraphim; each one had six wings: with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. 3 And one cried to another and said:
“Holy, holy, holy is the Lord (Yahweh) of hosts;
The whole earth is full of His glory!”
4 And the posts of the door were shaken by the voice of him who cried out, and the house was filled with smoke.
5 So I said:
“Woe is me, for I am undone!
Because I am a man of unclean lips,
And I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips;
For my eyes have seen the King,
The Lord (Yahweh) of hosts.”

Whose glory did Isaiah see in Isaiah 6:1-5
Yes... Isaiah saw the glory of Yahweh.

Why have you been avoiding my questions??? just curious is all because it seems to be that you are all about you and your beliefs and no consideration to mine... because you really don't seem to want to hear my responses to your questions unless they align with yours... lol.... no respect

[DBowling]

Why have you been avoiding my questions???

It hasn't been intentional...
I actually thought I was providing detailed Scriptural responses to your questions.

But my focus has been on what Scripture and Jesus say about the Divinity of Jesus.

I'll be glad to discuss what Scripture says.
But there's not much point in discussing personal opinions that have no Scriptural basis.

What Scripture did you have in mind?

[RickD]

Lonnie,

You're not giving much, if anything from scripture, that backs what you're asserting.

"Because I said so" is really not an argument for your position.