Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

LonnieOwesn1973 · Post by **LonnieOwesn1973** » Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:18 pm

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:14 pm
LonnieOwesn1973 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:06 pm
Philip wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:02 am
DBowling wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:46 am
LonnieOwesn1973 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:36 am Scripture is one thing but no one has given anything other than that...
I think we are always on firmer ground when we let Scripture speak for itself.
What Scripture says about itself is much more authoritative than any interpretation that I (or anyone else for that matter) might have about Scripture.

So when Scripture explicitly says
The Word (Jesus) WAS God
There is no interpretation required on my part.

I can either accept what Scripture says about Jesus.
Or I can deny what Scripture says about Jesus.
Lonnie, the ONLY way we know specifics about God, and about Jesus - the prophecies of His birth and coming the first time, of their many fulfillments, how He says we are to live, His apostles further illuminations and living God-honoring lives - are from Scripture. And yet you don't see Scriptural answers as relevant? And, at this point, you've been told redundantly why we believe as we do. Yet you seek mere opinions (alone, independent of Scripture?) of others as helping you make up your mind about Christ. What good is Scripture if you don't accept what it plainly teaches? And many of the passages we've cited are in no way ambiguous or difficult to understand! It's not our opinions you are rejecting - it's the teachings found across Scripture that you fail to accept as true. Because our opinions are BASED upon what Scripture teaches!
ok The if Jesus was God then explain why Jesus would ask himself why he had forsaken himself???
Because Jesus was NOT HIS FATHER.

Hence Jesus was not the one true God...

PaulSacramento · Post by **PaulSacramento** » Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:23 pm

LonnieOwesn1973 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:17 pm
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:13 pm
LonnieOwesn1973 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:01 pm Hey I just want to apologize for a misunderstanding....

Here I am going off about not being considerate about my my views and I failed to consider the ones given...

Yes I can see where you would place Jesus and God as one but the scripture in Christs own words tells me otherwise....

what I would like to know is if Jesus was God on earth, then why , just before he gave up the ghost, did ask God why God had forsaken him??? this is just one of many verses that completely contradicts the notion that he was God...

So again I apologize for not acknowledging your point of view and had Christ not made mention of God as a separate entity I would be right along side you in your beliefs but I cannot, with a clear conscience, come to the same conclusion knowing that God first said " Behold my beloved Son, in whom I am well Pleased." and Jesus asking God why God had forsaken him...

on these two verses hangs the proof that needs to be explained how anyone could say that Jesus was God when they refute the very belief...

Yes I am open to all answers...
Some say he is taking on the mantle of the Suffering Servant in Isiah, others suggest Pslam 22.
Or more correctly, Matthew is placing Jesus in the role.

As to why Jesus said it, no one can SPEAK for Jesus but why THIS verse give you doubt that Jesus and His Father shared the same naute makes NO SENSE whatsoever.
Unless you don't understand that Jesus being God, exactly like His Father is much tha same as YOU being Human, just like your Father.

Jesus being God does NOT MEAN Jesus is His Father.

Also, Jesus calling His Father God is a statement of Authority, The Father is above the Son as any Father is above any son in authority.
BUT Just like a son of a human has the same nature as his Father then Jesus, SON of GOD MUST have the same nature as The Father, how can he not ??
Same nature... are you your father??? I am not disputing why Jesus calls him Father I am disputing the fact that there is no evidence to prove he is God...

Now you are getting into polytheistic natures and the Christian faith is Monotheistic...

Yes, my father an dI have the same nature.
As do you and yours.
That doesn't make me my father or you yours.

Nature dude, not identity.
Jesus is NOT His Father.

PaulSacramento · Post by **PaulSacramento** » Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:24 pm

LonnieOwesn1973 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:18 pm
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:14 pm
LonnieOwesn1973 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:06 pm
Philip wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:02 am
DBowling wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:46 am
I think we are always on firmer ground when we let Scripture speak for itself.
What Scripture says about itself is much more authoritative than any interpretation that I (or anyone else for that matter) might have about Scripture.

So when Scripture explicitly says
The Word (Jesus) WAS God
There is no interpretation required on my part.

I can either accept what Scripture says about Jesus.
Or I can deny what Scripture says about Jesus.
Lonnie, the ONLY way we know specifics about God, and about Jesus - the prophecies of His birth and coming the first time, of their many fulfillments, how He says we are to live, His apostles further illuminations and living God-honoring lives - are from Scripture. And yet you don't see Scriptural answers as relevant? And, at this point, you've been told redundantly why we believe as we do. Yet you seek mere opinions (alone, independent of Scripture?) of others as helping you make up your mind about Christ. What good is Scripture if you don't accept what it plainly teaches? And many of the passages we've cited are in no way ambiguous or difficult to understand! It's not our opinions you are rejecting - it's the teachings found across Scripture that you fail to accept as true. Because our opinions are BASED upon what Scripture teaches!
ok The if Jesus was God then explain why Jesus would ask himself why he had forsaken himself???
Because Jesus was NOT HIS FATHER.
Hence Jesus was not the one true God...

You calling Jesus a false God ???

LonnieOwesn1973 · Post by **LonnieOwesn1973** » Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:27 pm

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:24 pm
LonnieOwesn1973 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:18 pm
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:14 pm
LonnieOwesn1973 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:06 pm
Philip wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:02 am

Lonnie, the ONLY way we know specifics about God, and about Jesus - the prophecies of His birth and coming the first time, of their many fulfillments, how He says we are to live, His apostles further illuminations and living God-honoring lives - are from Scripture. And yet you don't see Scriptural answers as relevant? And, at this point, you've been told redundantly why we believe as we do. Yet you seek mere opinions (alone, independent of Scripture?) of others as helping you make up your mind about Christ. What good is Scripture if you don't accept what it plainly teaches? And many of the passages we've cited are in no way ambiguous or difficult to understand! It's not our opinions you are rejecting - it's the teachings found across Scripture that you fail to accept as true. Because our opinions are BASED upon what Scripture teaches!
ok The if Jesus was God then explain why Jesus would ask himself why he had forsaken himself???
Because Jesus was NOT HIS FATHER.
Hence Jesus was not the one true God...
No I never called Jesus a God at all...This whole discussion was about Jesus being the 1 true God....

You calling Jesus a false God ???

LonnieOwesn1973 · Post by **LonnieOwesn1973** » Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:29 pm

Matthew 4:10 10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

LonnieOwesn1973 · Post by **LonnieOwesn1973** » Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:34 pm

if you want to take the Polytheistic mindset out of Christianity you must read the whole Bible and pay attention to the teachings of Christ and understand what the apostles are telling us and most importantly what Jesus is telling us....

LonnieOwesn1973 · Post by **LonnieOwesn1973** » Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:50 pm

Polytheism - n.The worship of or belief in more than one god.
n. Belief in more gods than one; the doctrine of a plurality of divine beings superior to man, and having part in the government of the world.
n.The doctrine of, or belief in, a plurality of gods.

Monotheism - The doctrine or belief that there is only one God.

Jesus taught of one true God

DBowling · Post by **DBowling** » Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:30 pm

LonnieOwesn1973 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:29 pm Matthew 4:10 10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

As I explained earlier, this is a key verse for understanding that Jesus is "the Lord thy God".

Matthew 14:33 is one of many places where Jesus excepts worship.

33 Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”

If Jesus states "Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." in Matthew 4:10.
And if Jesus accepts worship in Matthew 14:33.
==>
Jesus must believe he is ""the Lord thy God"

Matthew 14:33 tells us another very important thing.
"the Son of God" is also worthy of worship
==>
"The Son of God" is also "the Lord thy God"

Based on Matthew 4:10 and Matthew 14:33, one of these two statements must be true:
A. Since Jesus accepted worship, then Jesus = "the Son of God" = "the Lord thy God"
B. Jesus committed blasphemy because he accepted worship without being "the Lord thy God"

Do you believe Jesus is "the Lord thy God", or do you believe Jesus committed blasphemy?

RickD · Post by **RickD** » Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:41 pm

Guys,

As I said at the beginning, we need to focus on one, or a few verses at a time. Until we get some kind of understanding of the first discussed verse, it's pointless to move on. We can't let Lonnie just keep throwing out all kinds of verses, without dealing with one. He refuses to see the truth about anything regarding the deity of Christ. He won't deal with verses we give to him. Then he just throws the kitchen sink at us, and gets all offended when we don't respond.

You guys can continue to spin your wheels, or you can hold him to focusing on one thing at a time. And maybe, if we can help him understand one verse, we can then move on to another.

RickD · Post by **RickD** » Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:45 pm

LonnieOwesn1973 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:02 pm
RickD wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:14 am
Lonnie wrote:
Son of God quite literally means Son of God not God...
That's just flat out, 100% false.

The title, "Son of God" in Christianity, refers to the status of Jesus, as the divine Son of God the Father.

So again, you assert something that you have no idea about.
semantics

No, it's not semantics. You asserted something without proof. And you're wrong. The difference between your unsubstantiated opinion, and the real meaning, makes all the difference in the world, and shows you're in error.

LonnieOwesn1973 · Post by **LonnieOwesn1973** » Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:02 pm

DBowling wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:30 pm
LonnieOwesn1973 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:29 pm Matthew 4:10 10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
As I explained earlier, this is a key verse for understanding that Jesus is "the Lord thy God".

Matthew 14:33 is one of many places where Jesus excepts worship.
33 Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”
If Jesus states "Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." in Matthew 4:10.
And if Jesus accepts worship in Matthew 14:33.
==>
Jesus must believe he is ""the Lord thy God"

Matthew 14:33 tells us another very important thing.
"the Son of God" is also worthy of worship
==>
"The Son of God" is also "the Lord thy God"

Based on Matthew 4:10 and Matthew 14:33, one of these two statements must be true:
A. Since Jesus accepted worship, then Jesus = "the Son of God" = "the Lord thy God"
B. Jesus committed blasphemy because he accepted worship without being "the Lord thy God"

Do you believe Jesus is "the Lord thy God", or do you believe Jesus committed blasphemy?

Again I ask why would God ask himself why he himself had forsaken himself....

Jesus never once thought he was God... In fact, in the old times, worship quite literally meant to treat with Love and admiration but that did not mean that they worshiped him as they did God because if they looked at him in that manner he would have surely said something just the same way he told Satan thou shalt worship the LORD thy God and only him Shalt thou serve...

Like I said if you look at it from a one sided mind without taking into account the entirety of Christs teachings then you would be considering it blasphemy.... I consider it a sign of love and respect form the disciples... but the disciples didn't worship Jesus the way they worshiped God.

That is like prayer actually had a couple of meanings that still stand today, to ask in earnest and to hope...

if you only use the Bible then you will run yourself around in circles trying to justify things... trust me been there done that and it was a lesson well learned because I no longer assume anything...

but to answer you A or B answer... he neither thought he was God nor did he accept the same kind of worship reserved for God...

this is not my first rodeo my friend and I say this in kindness... I don't get mad about scripture because I am not doing it for me... in fact, I get no satisfaction out of any of this because God is the one who is ultimately asking and the only one you have to answer to is God himself...People usually end up sending me private messages after awhile asking questions and I can only give the answers that have been shown to me... sounds crazy but when you have a relationship with God he tends to be ever in your ear and he will never leave your side... Trust me on this because I was once a very bad person and should burn in hell for all I have done,, you have no clue... God called out to me and I answered his calling and to this day I am constantly under fire over the word of God but I am not afraid because God has my back in all things....

LonnieOwesn1973 · Post by **LonnieOwesn1973** » Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:05 pm

RickD wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:45 pm
LonnieOwesn1973 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:02 pm
RickD wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:14 am
Lonnie wrote:
Son of God quite literally means Son of God not God...
That's just flat out, 100% false.

The title, [highlight]"Son of God"[/highlight] in Christianity, refers to the status of Jesus, as the divine[highlight] Son of God[/highlight] the Father.

So again, you assert something that you have no idea about.
semantics
No, it's not semantics. You asserted something without proof. And you're wrong. The difference between your unsubstantiated opinion, and the real meaning, makes all the difference in the world, and shows you're in error.

semantics.... but it still doesn't mean God...even with your definition... Son of yes but not God...

RickD · Post by **RickD** » Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:08 pm

Lonnie wrote:
Hey I just want to apologize for a misunderstanding....

Here I am going off about not being considerate about my my views and I failed to consider the ones given...

Good. You finally admit that you aren't even considering the verses that Jesus says he's God, and reasoning behind why the verses say what they do. Now that you will make an honest attempt to understand the meaning of the verses, we can move on to a productive conversation.

And immediately after writing the above, Lonnie wrote:
Yes I can see where you would place Jesus and God as one but the scripture in Christs own words tells me otherwise...

Why even bother?

LonnieOwesn1973 · Post by **LonnieOwesn1973** » Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:08 pm

RickD wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:41 pm Guys,

As I said at the beginning, we need to focus on one, or a few verses at a time. Until we get some kind of understanding of the first discussed verse, it's pointless to move on. We can't let Lonnie just keep throwing out all kinds of verses, without dealing with one. He refuses to see the truth about anything regarding the deity of Christ. He won't deal with verses we give to him. Then he just throws the kitchen sink at us, and gets all offended when we don't respond.

You guys can continue to spin your wheels, or you can hold him to focusing on one thing at a time. And maybe, if we can help him understand one verse, we can then move on to another.

you wanna convince me Jesus is God... explain Matthew 27:46 without using a polytheistic approach... can't use rift because if a house be divide it cannot stand... not being sarcastic being real...

LonnieOwesn1973 · Post by **LonnieOwesn1973** » Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:11 pm

RickD wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:08 pm
Lonnie wrote:
Hey I just want to apologize for a misunderstanding....

Here I am going off about not being considerate about my my views and I failed to consider the ones given...
Good. You finally admit that you aren't even considering the verses that Jesus says he's God, and reasoning behind why the verses say what they do. Now that you will make an honest attempt to understand the meaning of the verses, we can move on to a productive conversation.

And immediately after writing the above, Lonnie wrote:
Yes I can see where you would place Jesus and God as one but the scripture in Christs own words tells me otherwise...

Why even bother?

not very christian but I half expected someone to try and rub it in when someone realizes they messed up... but hey I am cool with that... Pride cometh before the fall...

Evidence for God from Science