Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

LonnieOwesn1973 · Post by **LonnieOwesn1973** » Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:54 pm

DBowling wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:43 pm
LonnieOwesn1973 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:27 pm So in Matthew 27:46 God died on the cross???
Yes... Jesus' physical body died on the cross.
Just like our physical bodies will eventually die some day.

Jesus' Spirit was reunited with a resurrection body when he rose from the dead.
Just like our spirits will be reunited with a resurrection body in the future when Jesus Returns.

Not a resurrection body his own body.... A ressurection body would be made whole... Check Luke 24:39

LonnieOwesn1973 · Post by **LonnieOwesn1973** » Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:02 pm

DBowling wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:06 pm
LonnieOwesn1973 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:38 pm I am still waiting on an answer to the Matthew 4:10 because trinity is not an answer to that one...
I've already answered that one.
According to Matthew 4:10 "the Lord your God" is the ONLY valid object of worship (proskuneó)?

According to Matthew 14:33
Jesus is a valid object of worship (proskuneó)?
And the Son of God a valid object of worship (proskuneó)?

Therefore, according to Scripture (Mat 4:10 and Mat 14:33)...
the ONLY valid object of worship (proskuneó)? is "the Lord your God" = Jesus = the Son of God

Plus since yall still want to use John 1:1 stating that he was with God from the Beginning, which by the way, it says was with and not God...
You are misrepresenting Scripture... again.
Here is the text of John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
John 1:1-3 makes three explicit statements about the Word (Jesus)

1. The Word (Jesus) was WITH God
2. The Word (Jesus) WAS God
3. All things were made through the Word (Jesus)

All three of these Scriptural claims about Jesus are true.
You can't just pick and choose and disregard Scriptures just because they conflict with your personal opinions.

But scripture doesn't conflict with my belief at all... You are having a hard time explaining how God can die... That's all I'm saying...

God called him his Son, the disciples call him the Son of God, the devil calls him the Son of God and yet you still think he is God when all those who were there never considered him other than the Son of God, even his own Brother didn't consider him God, so what make you better than his own people who walked with him at the time??? Just curious... Plus if his disciples thought he was God and believed he would be resurrected then when he showed himself to them and they are terrified because they thought they were looking at a spirit...

LonnieOwesn1973 · Post by **LonnieOwesn1973** » Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:15 pm

NASB says frightened sorry I usually use the King James Bible... Both say exactly the same thing just some words are different but have the same meaning...

LonnieOwesn1973 · Post by **LonnieOwesn1973** » Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:31 pm

Lol prosekynēsan means worship not proskynéō was wondering why you gave me the wrong word but either way also,means to pay homage...

RickD · Post by **RickD** » Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:15 am

For anyone reading this thread, I'd like to apologize. I was the one who approved Lonnie's first posts, which allowed him to continue posting on our forum. I had though he may actually be an honest seeker.

But I was wrong. Even though he has said that he is open to being shown from scripture, that Jesus is God, it's clear to me now that he's been dishonest, and has no intention of changing his mind, no matter what proof he's shown.

Take lonnie's own words. Does this sound like an honest seeker?

Lonnie wrote:
So forgive me if I do not cave to your beliefs..

DBowling · Post by **DBowling** » Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:22 am

LonnieOwesn1973 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:52 pm
DBowling wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:32 pm
LonnieOwesn1973 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:59 pm
As for the meaning of proskuneó other than Bible hub, which by the way I did check out, of all the lexicons I have checked and a couple that I have that are very old... proskuneó means to pay homage, to express respect...so what part of that means worship???
On the other hand, the meaning of proskuneó in Mat 4:10 and Mat 14:33 is very relevant to the topic at hand, because when Jesus accepted worship (proskuneó) that validates the teaching of Scripture that...
"the Lord your God" = Jesus = the Son of God

So... I did a quick search of lexicons too... and I didn't find a single lexicon that didn't list worship under proskuneó, so I have difficulty believing that you were able to find a lexicon that did not even mention worship.

That said... let's go back to Mat 4:10
10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship (proskuneó) the Lord your God, and serve him only.’
Do you believe that worship is an accurate translation for proskuneó in Mat 4:10?

Do you believe that according to Mat 4:10...
the Lord our God is the ONLY valid object of "proskuneó"?
The LORD our God yes but the Son of God no....
I copied and pasted the definition lol for you... No,mention of worship in it ... And according to your lexicon search what are the other possible uses for the word???

Ok... I think I found out where you were confused...
I found something similar to what you posted here
under "Outline of Biblical Usage"
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/le ... 4352&t=KJV

Now if you go down just a bit to "Strong's Definition" you will see this

pros-koo-neh'-o; from G4314 and a probable derivative of G2965 (meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master's hand); to fawn or crouch to, i.e. (literally or figuratively) prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence to, adore):—worship.

There it is... worship

The next section is "Thayer's Greek Lexicon"
under section b you find this

b. of homage rendered to God and the ascended Christ, to heavenly beings, and to demons: absolutely (our to worship)

There it is again... worship

Which shows us what is going on inthe definition you posted.
Homage to God or to Christ IS the definition of worship.

You can see some other helpful things about "proskuneó" on this page as well.
Under the "Greek Inflections" section you can see how many times each of the different gramatic forms of "proskuneó" (such as prosekynēsan) are used in the Greek New Testament

And under the "KJV Usage" section you can see that "proskuneó" is used 60 times in the Greek NT and it is translated "worship" all 60 times in the KJV. (Including both Mat 4:10 and Mat 14:33)

Which brings us full circle back to...
(and I'll be happy to use KJV if you wish)

Mat 4:10

Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship (proskuneó) the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

"The Lord thy God" is the ONLY valid object of worship (proskuneó).

Matthew 14:33

33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped (proskuneó) him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

There it is...
According to the Word of God...
Jesus was a valid object of worship (proskuneó)
The Son of God was a valid object of worship (proskuneó)

The choice is pretty simple...
Are you going to accept what the Word of God says in Mat 14:33?
Or are you going to deny what the Word of God says in Mat 14:33?

DBowling · Post by **DBowling** » Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:33 am

LonnieOwesn1973 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:02 pm
DBowling wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:06 pm
LonnieOwesn1973 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:38 pm I am still waiting on an answer to the Matthew 4:10 because trinity is not an answer to that one...
I've already answered that one.
According to Matthew 4:10 "the Lord your God" is the ONLY valid object of worship (proskuneó)?

According to Matthew 14:33
Jesus is a valid object of worship (proskuneó)?
And the Son of God a valid object of worship (proskuneó)?

Therefore, according to Scripture (Mat 4:10 and Mat 14:33)...
the ONLY valid object of worship (proskuneó)? is "the Lord your God" = Jesus = the Son of God

Plus since yall still want to use John 1:1 stating that he was with God from the Beginning, which by the way, it says was with and not God...
You are misrepresenting Scripture... again.
Here is the text of John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
John 1:1-3 makes three explicit statements about the Word (Jesus)

1. The Word (Jesus) was WITH God
2. The Word (Jesus) WAS God
3. All things were made through the Word (Jesus)

All three of these Scriptural claims about Jesus are true.
You can't just pick and choose and disregard Scriptures just because they conflict with your personal opinions.
But scripture doesn't conflict with my belief at all...

Do you believe that The Word (Jesus) was WITH God (John 1:1)?
Do you believe that The Word (Jesus) WAS God (John 1:1)?
Do you believe that All things were made through the Word (Jesus) (John 1:3)?

Do you believe that Jesus is a valid object of worship (Mat 14:33)?
Do you believe that the Son of God is a valid object of worship (Mat 14:33)?

RickD · Post by **RickD** » Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:51 am

DBowling,

Perhaps you could tell us what the title, "Son of God" means.

And, is there a difference between "Son of God", and "son of God".

DBowling · Post by **DBowling** » Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:39 am

RickD wrote: ↑Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:51 am DBowling,

Perhaps you could tell us what the title, "Son of God" means.

And, is there a difference between "Son of God", and "son of God".

Sure... I think either Paul or Phillip (or maybe you

) hit on this earlier in this thread.

Anyone who puts their faith and trust in Jesus becomes a son (or child) of God.
We remain human by nature, but God adopts us into the family of God.

Jesus is the "One and Only" Son of God in that he is the only person who is by nature the same kind of thing as God. (see Phil 2:6).
Just like I am the same kind of thing as my parents (ie human).
Jesus is the same kind of thing as his Father (ie God).

This is why the Jews wanted to kill Jesus in John 5:18.
When Jesus referred to God as his Father and said that he does whatever the Father does he was claiming to be the same kind of thing or "equal with God".

There are many "sons" (or children) of God
There is one and only one "Son" of God

PaulSacramento · Post by **PaulSacramento** » Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:43 am

LonnieOwesn1973 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:50 pm Polytheism - n.The worship of or belief in more than one god.
n. Belief in more gods than one; the doctrine of a plurality of divine beings superior to man, and having part in the government of the world.
n.The doctrine of, or belief in, a plurality of gods.

Monotheism - The doctrine or belief that there is only one God.

Jesus taught of one true God

Correct.
So, where does that leave us?
Paul believed Jesus to be God, to have the same nature as God and explicitly stated this in his writings.
John explicitly states that Jesus, the Word, IS God.
Jesus gives unto Himself all the powers and authority of God and makes Himself equal to God.

Are all three crazy? blasphemers ??

Or, perhaps, is it the simpel fact that Son and Father, sharing the same divine nature, being ONE, makes BOTH of them GOD ??

PaulSacramento · Post by **PaulSacramento** » Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:46 am

LonnieOwesn1973 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:31 pm Lol prosekynēsan means worship not proskynéō was wondering why you gave me the wrong word but either way also,means to pay homage...

This is the very same thing that JW's say about the term.

The problem is that, when the term is applied to GOD it always means worship, when it applies to false gods as example of what NOT to do, it means worship and, within the context of how it is always applied to Jesus in the NT, it also means worship.

Not one did Jesus rebuke anyone that worshiped Him.

LonnieOwesn1973 · Post by **LonnieOwesn1973** » Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:49 am

please Tell me in what scripture Jesus states that he Gave himself these the powers and authority of God? this is another I am curious to see, because again not in any of my Bibles...

LonnieOwesn1973 · Post by **LonnieOwesn1973** » Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:51 am

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:46 am
LonnieOwesn1973 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:31 pm Lol prosekynēsan means worship not proskynéō was wondering why you gave me the wrong word but either way also,means to pay homage...
This is the very same thing that JW's say about the term.

The problem is that, when the term is applied to GOD it always means worship, when it applies to false gods as example of what NOT to do, it means worship and, within the context of how it is always applied to Jesus in the NT, it also means worship.

Not one did Jesus rebuke anyone that worshiped Him.

Because they were Paying Homage not worshiping him as they would worship God...

LonnieOwesn1973 · Post by **LonnieOwesn1973** » Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:52 am

Good Morning all...

Had my aunt go over to check and see where I went wrong in my communication and she also believes Jesus is God and is married to a retired Theology professor who does not believe Jesus is God...
She told me that I have given all that I can and thus far , from the responses I have received, she said that there is no teaching going on and that it is one sided..

She did however say that I am not trying to push my beliefs and can see where I am trying to learn because I am asking specific questions based on faith and not the written word....

My uncle, who also has read this, said that a true christian would strive to communicate better by asking why a person believe the way they do without the use of scripture and this is where our own understanding comes from and I have done just that and he is happy I did not blow a gasket and start calling people out in the manor in which I am being called out...

So with that being said, and since not one person has fully satisfied the questions I have asked, I cannot see where continuing this conversation will solve anything....

When you cannot explain a simple thing Like " About the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?” Matthew 27:46 then there is no need in bouncing around... the best defense, and only defense, a person has is to cling to Verses that have established their faith, which is what is being done here..

I do not wish God speed because it is clear that it would be of no use here... I only hope that the next time someone has serious questions that y'all will afford the the respect you have denied me in my quest of understanding..

I am not mad at all nor am I offended but if you choose to not look at things from my side and see where I am coming from then you will not understand what it is to be a true believer because a true believer is one who is not closed minded... I am definitely not closed minded because a closed minded person would not ask valid questions...

Do I believe Jesus should be respected? Absolutely
Do I believe that Jesus is a valid object of the same worship that is reserved for " The LORD thy God? no
Do I believe that Jesus is the one true God? no
Do I believe that Jesus is the Son of God? Absolutely
Do I believe in the Holy Trinity as the 3 in one? Not in the way you believe it to be

DBowling · Post by **DBowling** » Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:58 am

LonnieOwesn1973 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:49 am please Tell me in what scripture Jesus states that he Gave himself these the powers and authority of God? this is another I am curious to see, because again not in any of my Bibles...

Actually John 1:1 says that Jesus (the Word) always had the power and authority of God.
He never gave himself or at any time gained this power and authority.
Since The Word (Jesus) WAS God he always had them.

Scripture Check...
Do you believe that The Word (Jesus) was WITH God (John 1:1)?
Do you believe that The Word (Jesus) WAS God (John 1:1)?
Do you believe that All things were made through the Word (Jesus) (John 1:3)?

Do you believe that Jesus is a valid object of worship (Mat 14:33)?
Do you believe that the Son of God is a valid object of worship (Mat 14:33)?

Evidence for God from Science