The Ravi Zacharias Scandal

[Nessa]

I believe he was deeply self deceived

https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.huffpost ... e69cdc/amp

[Nessa]

He allegedly made a woman he had sex with, pray with him afterwards. He thanked God that she was his reward after long Christian service

That's what I mean about deep self deception. Humans self justify in such disturbing ways.

[Kurieuo]

Stuff Google and MSM.

But, just came here to post and saw you beat me to it. Here's RZIM's statement directly:
https://www.rzim.org/read/rzim-updates/board-statement

Also, in Christianity Today:
https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/ ... -rape.html

[Kurieuo]

Reason why people should only put their full confidence in and look to Christ only, and not in weak and fallible human beings, churches, organisations, governments, leaders, etc.

[Stu]

Did Jesus not say that in the end times many would come in His name who are not of the faith?
There are many wolves in sheep's clothing in the Christian world.

Did he just stumble or was he like that from the getgo. If the rape allegations are true then I don't see how any true man of God could do that.

[RickD]

Why is this just coming out now?

If these allegations are true, how was this kept hidden for so long?

If this is true, there has had to have been a massive cover-up within RZIM.

[RickD]

He allegedly made a woman he had sex with, pray with him afterwards. He thanked God that she was his reward after long Christian service

That's what I mean about deep self deception. Humans self justify in such disturbing ways.

That sounds really far-fetched. If he really said something as this, surely there had to be other clues that he was this deceived. There had to be other instances that got brushed aside.

Someone this self-deceived, thinking that God is rewarding him with sex(more accurately rape or manipulation) must’ve shown this “Mr. Hyde” side of himself at other times.

[Kurieuo]

RZIM aren't denying it Rick, and it's been around a few months now, accusations a few years even.

The reason it's coming more to the forefront now, is because the report RZIM funded was just released a couple days ago:

Report of Independent Investigation into Sexual Misconduct of Ravi Zacharias February 9, 2021

[Stu]

He allegedly made a woman he had sex with, pray with him afterwards. He thanked God that she was his reward after long Christian service

That's what I mean about deep self deception. Humans self justify in such disturbing ways.

That sounds really far-fetched. If he really said something as this, surely there had to be other clues that he was this deceived. There had to be other instances that got brushed aside.

Someone this self-deceived, thinking that God is rewarding him with sex(more accurately rape or manipulation) must’ve shown this “Mr. Hyde” side of himself at other times.

Not true, serial killers can play the part of ordinary citizen very well. Humans can deceive and hide their true nature.

The praying with the lady afterwards was more than likely not for his benefit but to try to trick the lady into thinking that is was right.

[RickD]

Stu wrote:
Not true, serial killers can play the part of ordinary citizen very well. Humans can deceive and hide their true nature.

I understand that. But aren’t serial killers typically the guy who “keeps to himself”?

Ravi was a highly public figure, who ran a huge ministry. You’re telling me that nobody he worked with, or even his wife never saw anything that raised a red flag?

The praying with the lady afterwards was more than likely not for his benefit but to try to trick the lady into thinking that is was right.

So, it really was for his benefit. It’s a manipulation tactic, used to control people.

Just think of all of the damage this has caused, if these allegations are true.

[Philip]

I've known about this for quite some time. It's a tremendous tragedy of what went on with Ravi. And those in leadership of his ministry at first didn't want to believe it, or believed nefarious elements were trying to take him down with lies. But there was a point that multiple sources were showing credible and very troubling things that should have been addressed. And still need to be addressed.

The entire sorry saga of Ravi and his ministry's failures are great examples of why we must seek God's truths first AND always be willing to criticize and investigate "our own." And by our own, I mean, wherever and whenever there are lies and corruption, whether they are coming from our own families, children, pastors, fellow business leaders, politicians or parties we favor - no matter the source, we need to call them all out and hold them accountable when they do wrong or evil. And people get sucked into perversely believing that it's better to support those we favor, even if they do terrible things, merely because they are one "our side" and that we will strengthen others we see as far-more dangerous or harmful if we don't support our favorites, even when they really screw up or cause great harm.

If everyone would do that, just call out bad stuff, lies and corruption from WHOMEVER or whatever source it comes and hold EVERYONE accountable, quit playing favorites, then our world, organizations and the truth would be far better upheld and appreciated. And as we are ALL sinful human beings, every one of us needs such accountability. And when we hold "our own" accountable, we can been seen as non-partisan, fair and truthful. And when we do not, we become hypocrites of the worse sort. And it's often painful, right, to call out those we favor. And it's often not easy and we'll receive great criticism for not supporting "the better side" or "the greater good." And those pressures are precisely why so few of us will call a thing right or wrong, entirely independent of the source of it.

We're in a broken world and God's ways are best. Notice how across Scripture God often called out and punished HIS own quite severely. So, God - just like we should - allowed consequences for sinful actions while also holding out His hand for repentance and contrition while also desiring to forgive and restore. And that's the other thing, people screw up - especially those we don't like - and our tendency is to mentally put them in a category of people we despise and deem unworthy of forgiveness. And that's pretty horrible, too - not to mention exceptionally unloving (again, hypocrites, right?).

[Nessa]

Stu brings up a good point.

It's called compartmentalizing.

And I do believe although on some level he may have known he was wrong, Ravi was still very self devieved.

I believe he really believed in what he said to the women although that doesn't negate the fact that it is still manipulative.

Ravi also said in the Bible, some Godly men had more than one wife. Another twisting of the truth and self justification.

I have been doing some research on self deception and I think we can underestimate the extent and power of it.

Because of his chronic back issues, it was more easy for Ravi to justify all the massages. Ravi even tried to justify that massaging the groin area was a medical intervention where the ligaments are released.

Someone else indicated that this was true but it is meant to be done by.a professional expert and not while naked!

I think there was a degree of grandiose Narcissism going on. With his own great embellishment of his credentials etc.

Ravi tried to commit suicide as a teen because of the pressure of his culture to do extremely well. He had been failing.

So I don't think his suicide threat to Lori Ann, if she blew his cover, was just a desperate attempt at manipulating her. Rather that the shame that would follow being exposed would be overwhelmingly too great.

I even think him grooming was filled with self deception. Maybe on one level he really thought he could help ladies by being a father figure or mentor but wanted to get something out of it for himself.

Ravi indicated his marriage was just like a business arrangement and with always being away, the temptation to run after intimacy would have been there. Desiring a passionate relationship as indicated in the revealing txts (quoted in the report). He seem to be having at least one physical sexual relationship with a woman he felt passionate about.

[Kurieuo]

Ravi took things to a different level, in not only taking advantage of his position of power and respect amongst Christians, but then the women he molested/paid off with money and gifts, or when those like Lori Anne made their claims, rather than coming clean, he protected himself and filed lawsuits back and attempted to destroy and silence her and her husband.

I never really gravitated to Ravi, I actually found him more ramblish and the like. I tried, because others seemed to really like him, but I just couldn't tune it to him.*that I'm not making this up, see my post here, "Now many Christians love Ravi, but whether its his voice or the way he says things, I personally find it very hard to tune into him." I thought I was missing out on something by not liking him... but now, I really don't care much to.

Any Christian (human) can fall into sexual immorality, but Ravi took it to a new level when called out by seeking to cover up by destroying those against whom he sinned. Much like King David did with Uriah. Hmm. The question we should ask is to put ourselves in that position, as Peterson would say, something like (paraphrasing from memory): "it's not good enough to think of what Nazi soldiers did and be repulsed and think we're better and morally superior... but the better or more important thing to deliberate upon is to see ourselves as the monsters in such stories." What would it take for us to commit unspeakable acts against other human beings. We're human too, and fallible, the monster within is something inside all of us, and until we really deeply reflect and accept that possibility... well we're not being entirely honest and upfront with ourselves, and indeed our very need for a cure like we find in Christ to rescue us. We always like to think Israel stupidly turned against God, over and over again... there is a reason why King Davd, a boy and man initially after God's own heart, became so mired in evils. We're meant to learn and see ourselves in these stories, as "Israel"... that not only they, but we have a wickedness to our nature... and for this Christ was given to us as the cure because the unrighteous can't make themselves righteous (except perhaps in their/our own eyes).

It's sad, about Ravi, because he built his presentations, his stories, off much intellectual thought developed by other great Christian apologists during the 20th century and turning of (which I'd considered Ravi a part of too). And now, it is quite stained by such. It should be a massive wake up call, again, to not look and place confidence in men or women, but keep your eyes on God, Christ. (Hebrews 12:1-2)

[Nessa]

Ravi took things to a different level, in not only taking advantage of his position of power and respect amongst Christians, but then the women he molested/paid off with money and gifts, or when those like Lori Anne made their claims, rather than coming clean, he protected himself and filed lawsuits back and attempted to destroy and silence her and her husband.

I never really gravitated to Ravi, I actually found him more ramblish and the like. I tried, because others seemed to really like him, but I just couldn't tune it to him.*that I'm not making this up, see my post here, "Now many Christians love Ravi, but whether its his voice or the way he says things, I personally find it very hard to tune into him." I thought I was missing out on something by not liking him... but now, I really don't care much to.

Any Christian (human) can fall into sexual immorality, but Ravi took it to a new level when called out by seeking to cover up by destroying those against whom he sinned. Much like King David did with Uriah. Hmm. The question we should ask is to put ourselves in that position, as Peterson would say, something like (paraphrasing from memory): "it's not good enough to think of what Nazi soldiers did and be repulsed and think we're better and morally superior... but the better or more important thing to deliberate upon is to see ourselves as the monsters in such stories." What would it take for us to commit unspeakable acts against other human beings. We're human too, and fallible, the monster within is something inside all of us, and until we really deeply reflect and accept that possibility... well we're not being entirely honest and upfront with ourselves, and indeed our very need for a cure like we find in Christ to rescue us. We always like to think Israel stupidly turned against God, over and over again... there is a reason why King Davd, a boy and man initially after God's own heart, became so mired in evils. We're meant to learn and see ourselves in these stories, as "Israel"... that not only they, but we have a wickedness to our nature... and for this Christ was given to us as the cure because the unrighteous can't make themselves righteous (except perhaps in their/our own eyes).

It's sad, about Ravi, because he built his presentations, his stories, off much intellectual thought developed by other great Christian apologists during the 20th century and turning of (which I'd considered Ravi a part of too). And now, it is quite stained by such. It should be a massive wake up call, again, to not look and place confidence in men or women, but keep your eyes on God, Christ. (Hebrews 12:1-2)

I could not usually follow Ravi either... He tended to get side tracked in his messages which I found difficult to follow. Chuck Missler was like this too.

I love the Peterson quote and pretty sure I came across it awhile back. I grew up with parents who see good people and bad people. Murderers and rapists go to hell etc and we (good people) go to heaven.

But I believe we are all capable of the most wicked crimes under certain circumstances. Though most people insist on playing good cop and bad cop to justify their sins. We use other people's 'greater' sin to make our 'lesser' sin look 'better'. But Jesus made it clear not to even hate in the heart or we murder, or even lust with the eyes and commit adultery.

When we judge Ravi, even with righteous judgement, we need to be careful that we also don't fall.

[Philip]

Some people are exceptionally clever at hiding away their evil activities - and Ravi was clearly a master at it. And like Nessa alluded to - probably so good at it that he had deceived even himself. And yeah, it's frightening, as we all know our own sin nature can suck us right into the vortex as well. And one of the best defenses against that is having close relationships with other Christians that we're willing to be mutually accountable with. And THAT is one reason why "Lone Ranger" Christianity is really bad - because it's dangerous when one is not in constant physical (not online / remote, etc.) fellowship with others that will hold us accountable (and vice versa). I WANT my Christian brothers I trust to call me out if I'm out of sync with how I should be conducting myself. Because, hopefully, I can be made aware of a need to correct a small thing that could otherwise grow into a monstrous one (like with Ravi).