Mark of the Beast Prototype Is Here

[Stu]

According to Scripture believers should be preparing for the Second Coming of Jesus that could occur at any time.
(Mat 24:36-25:46)

So what then of the Seals, Trumpets and Vials. Just ignore them?

Not at all...
Let's look at what Scripture actually says about the timing of the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials.

Let's start by going back to Revelation 1... again
What did John say about the timing of the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials?
Rev 1:1 "The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place."
Rev 1:3 "blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

So according to John, the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials "must soon take place" "because the time is near"


That's what John the Apostle says about the timing of the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials.
That's what Scripture says about the timing of the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials.

And yet God says 1 day can be as a thousand.

Which has nothing at all to do with what the Apostle John says in Rev 1:1, 3 or what Jesus says in Matthew 24:34.

When John says the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials "must soon take place" "because the time is near", no amount of mental gymnastics can allow John's words in Rev 1:1, 3 to mean, "just kidding.. I really meant over 2000 years in the future".

There is so much importance put on the seals that only Jesus can open them and the Bible dedicates a whole chapter to it.

What happened in 70 AD IS enormously important!

With the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD, God brought the "Last Days" of the Old Covenant era to an end.
John's vision shows us that under the New Covenant, the Bride of Jesus is now the faithful remnant of Israel and all those who put their faith and trust in Jesus (ie those who receive the Mark of the Lamb).

Yet you would have us believe that the seals, trumpets and vials took place and no one in history recorded a single one of those events?

Actually in his Antiquities and Jewish Wars, Josephus records many of the historical events that John's vision prophesies.

- Did the stars fall to earth? Again indicating that they are not millions of miles away but are in the firmament.

I do not claim to have perfect knowledge of the precise meaning of all the imagery and symbolism in John's Vision.
Some of the symbolism in John's vision is explicitly explained in the vision itself, and some of it isn't.
Some of the symbolism and imagery in John's vision can be understood by seeing how that same prophetic imagery and symbolism is used elsewhere in Scripture.

For example...
Regarding the star's falling to earth, this isn't the first time that Scripture uses prophetic cataclysmic cosmic imagery
In his prophecy against Babylon, Isaiah uses cataclysmic cosmic imagery to describe God's judgement on Babylon (Isaiah 13:9-10)
Cataclysmic cosmic imagery is also used by the prophet Joel in his prophecy regarding the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost (Acts 2:16-21)

A key to understanding prophetic symbolism and imagery in Scripture is "Let Scripture interpret Scripture"
1. First, see if the prophecy or vision explicitly defines the meaning of certain symbols and imagery. Revelation actually defines some of its key symbolism and imagery.
2. Second, if a prophecy doesn't explicitly define it's imagery then "let Scripture interpret Scripture" and see where that kind of imagery and symbolism is used elsewhere in Scripture. Such as the example of prophetic cataclysmic cosmic imagery that I describe above.

It is no surprise that those who use newspapers and TV to interpret Scripture instead of using Holy Spirit inspired Scripture to interpret Scripture, are repeatedly revealed to be "false prophets".

Ok so you just conveniently ignore all the parts you can't answer in my post. I'll try again.

This happens during the seals:
Revelation 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Note that the scroll part is referring to the solid firmament. Not the entire universe.

This happens during the vials:
Revelation 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

They are clearly talking about the same thing, it cannot happen twice, meaning they end at the same time with the mountains and islands being moved out of their place.

Did this happen?

Did the following happen. No they couldn't hence the seals and vials did not take place in 70AD.

- Did the stars fall to earth? Again indicating that they are not millions of miles away but are in the firmament. The Bible only ever refers to stars as angels.
- Did a third of the ships get destroyed? They did in World war II.
- Were the four angels which were bound in the great river Euphrates set free? Did they slay the third part of men?
- Did sores on men with the mark appear (again this indicates a physical mark) on those who took the mark?
- Did the sea became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul die in the sea? Clearly not, which means it has yet to happen.

[DBowling]

Ok so you just conveniently ignore all the parts you can't answer in my post.

I think it is very clear to anyone following this thread who is 'ignoring' Scripture and who is being guided by Scripture

When did John the Apostle say that the events seen in his vision would take place again?
Hint... See Rev 1:1 and Rev 1:3
Another Hint... It wasn't over 2000 years in the future

This happens during the seals:
Revelation 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Note that the scroll part is referring to the solid firmament. Not the entire universe.

This happens during the vials:
Revelation 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

If we "Let Scripture interpret Scripture" then the first step is to see where this imagery is used elsewhere in Scripture.
This kind of prophetic imagery can also be found in in prophecies like Isaiah 34, 41, 51 and Nahum 1 when God judges the nations.

Did this happen?

Of course it happened.
And it happened when John the Apostle said it would happen

Just because you don't understand the prophetic imagery in John's vision, doesn't mean John's prophecy wasn't fulfilled when he said it would be fulfilled in Rev 1:1 and Rev 1:3.

- Did the stars fall to earth? Again indicating that they are not millions of miles away but are in the firmament. The Bible only ever refers to stars as angels.
- Did a third of the ships get destroyed? They did in World war II.
- Were the four angels which were bound in the great river Euphrates set free? Did they slay the third part of men?
- Did sores on men with the mark appear (again this indicates a physical mark) on those who took the mark?
- Did the sea became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul die in the sea? Clearly not, which means it has yet to happen.

Again... Of course it happened.
And it happened when John the Apostle said it would happen

Just because you don't understand the prophetic imagery in John's vision, doesn't mean John's prophecy wasn't fulfilled when he said it would be fulfilled in Rev 1:1 and Rev 1:3.

[Stu]

Ok so you just conveniently ignore all the parts you can't answer in my post.

I think it is very clear to anyone following this thread who is 'ignoring' Scripture and who is being guided by Scripture

When did John the Apostle say that the events seen in his vision would take place again?
Hint... See Rev 1:1 and Rev 1:3
Another Hint... It wasn't over 2000 years in the future

This happens during the seals:
Revelation 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Note that the scroll part is referring to the solid firmament. Not the entire universe.

This happens during the vials:
Revelation 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

If we "Let Scripture interpret Scripture" then the first step is to see where this imagery is used elsewhere in Scripture.
This kind of prophetic imagery can also be found in in prophecies like Isaiah 34, 41, 51 and Nahum 1 when God judges the nations.

Did this happen?

Of course it happened.
And it happened when John the Apostle said it would happen

Just because you don't understand the prophetic imagery in John's vision, doesn't mean John's prophecy wasn't fulfilled when he said it would be fulfilled in Rev 1:1 and Rev 1:3.

- Did the stars fall to earth? Again indicating that they are not millions of miles away but are in the firmament. The Bible only ever refers to stars as angels.
- Did a third of the ships get destroyed? They did in World war II.
- Were the four angels which were bound in the great river Euphrates set free? Did they slay the third part of men?
- Did sores on men with the mark appear (again this indicates a physical mark) on those who took the mark?
- Did the sea became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul die in the sea? Clearly not, which means it has yet to happen.

Again... Of course it happened.
And it happened when John the Apostle said it would happen

Just because you don't understand the prophetic imagery in John's vision, doesn't mean John's prophecy wasn't fulfilled when he said it would be fulfilled in Rev 1:1 and Rev 1:3.

Oh so it's more hand waving on your part to prove that it took place. I don't understand, but YOU do understand, but you have zero proof for it. You do know that your position is a minority one.

So you are saying that when he wrote that "the sea became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea" that it is not what he meant, that all the animals in the sea didn't die?

What are you saying, that it's just a metaphor, or that it did happen? Because if it did happen how is the sea full of life today?

What about a third of men being killed by 4 angels, just a metaphor?

You are twisting and turning to prove your point, using an argument from authority, that usually shows that you have no leg to stand on.

[DBowling]

Just because you don't understand the prophetic imagery in John's vision, doesn't mean John's prophecy wasn't fulfilled when he said it would be fulfilled in Rev 1:1 and Rev 1:3.

Oh so it's more hand waving on your part to prove that it took place.

Go back and read my posts again...
I repeatedly respond to your false assertions with SCRIPTURE... and lots of it!

In case you somehow missed it, in the opening three verses of the book of Revelation, John tells us when his prophecy would be fulfilled.
No hand waving.
This is what SCRIPTURE says.
Revelation 1:1-3

1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

If you deny what the first three verses of Revelation (which are straightforward with no symbolism or imagery) say, then your interpretation of John's vision itself (which is full of symbolism and imagery) is going to be fundamentally flawed.

Just because you don't understand the prophetic imagery in John's vision, doesn't mean John's prophecy wasn't fulfilled when he said it would be fulfilled in Rev 1:1 and Rev 1:3.

When you understand and embrace the first three verses of Revelation, then you will have the Scriptural context for correctly understanding the rest of the book.

[Stu]

Just because you don't understand the prophetic imagery in John's vision, doesn't mean John's prophecy wasn't fulfilled when he said it would be fulfilled in Rev 1:1 and Rev 1:3.

Oh so it's more hand waving on your part to prove that it took place.

Go back and read my posts again...
I repeatedly respond to your false assertions with SCRIPTURE... and lots of it!

In case you somehow missed it, in the opening three verses of the book of Revelation, John tells us when his prophecy would be fulfilled.
No hand waving.
This is what SCRIPTURE says.
Revelation 1:1-3

1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

If you deny what the first three verses of Revelation (which are straightforward with no symbolism or imagery) say, then your interpretation of John's vision itself (which is full of symbolism and imagery) is going to be fundamentally flawed.

Just because you don't understand the prophetic imagery in John's vision, doesn't mean John's prophecy wasn't fulfilled when he said it would be fulfilled in Rev 1:1 and Rev 1:3.

When you understand and embrace the first three verses of Revelation, then you will have the Scriptural context for correctly understanding the rest of the book.

Yeah sorry but it is you who is ignoring scripture.

You are taking three verses of Revelation and ignoring the rest of the book! That is not what a Christian should do.
You don't know when Jesus inspired John to write that He meant 3 years or 1000 years. Just like you local flood people take the word WHOLE and say it means local you are making your own interpretation here again. Soon compared to what.

Again, did all the animals in the sea die?

How can that be interpreted in any other way than what is says there. They either died or they didn't, if they did then why is the ocean full of them today. Or more likely it didn't happen.

[Stu]

Rick, I'm curious, are you a preterist?

If not why do you make fun of people who believe in the devil and anti-christ and false prophet are going to have their way with the earth, the devil already has his claws in all aspects of our lives.

The devil is going to have his way with the earth during the tribulation, and will implement the mark of the beast and create an image of the beast (AI probably) that will force people to worship the beast.

Unless you are not a preterist you are playing a dangerous game dismissing Bible prophecy as conspiracy. Daniel said these things would be sealed up until the end. Everything required for the beast system is here.

[DBowling]

Just because you don't understand the prophetic imagery in John's vision, doesn't mean John's prophecy wasn't fulfilled when he said it would be fulfilled in Rev 1:1 and Rev 1:3.

Oh so it's more hand waving on your part to prove that it took place.

Go back and read my posts again...
I repeatedly respond to your false assertions with SCRIPTURE... and lots of it!

In case you somehow missed it, in the opening three verses of the book of Revelation, John tells us when his prophecy would be fulfilled.
No hand waving.
This is what SCRIPTURE says.
Revelation 1:1-3

1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

If you deny what the first three verses of Revelation (which are straightforward with no symbolism or imagery) say, then your interpretation of John's vision itself (which is full of symbolism and imagery) is going to be fundamentally flawed.

Just because you don't understand the prophetic imagery in John's vision, doesn't mean John's prophecy wasn't fulfilled when he said it would be fulfilled in Rev 1:1 and Rev 1:3.

When you understand and embrace the first three verses of Revelation, then you will have the Scriptural context for correctly understanding the rest of the book.

Yeah sorry but it is you who is ignoring scripture.

Do you believe John was telling the truth when he said?
The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place
Do you believe John was telling the truth when he said?
blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

The first three verses of the book of Revelation set the context for the rest of the book.
If you continue to deny what John says in Revelation 1:1-3 then you will continue to get the whole book wrong.

Just because you don't understand the prophetic imagery in John's vision, doesn't mean John's prophecy wasn't fulfilled when he said it would be fulfilled in Rev 1:1 and Rev 1:3.

When you acknowledge the truth of the first three verses of Revelation, then you will understand the context that is key to correctly interpreting and understanding John's vision.

[RickD]

Stu wrote:
Rick, I'm curious, are you a preterist?

No. I haven’t decided upon an end time belief. I got burnt out on the subject years ago, and I got away from it.

If not why do you make fun of people who believe in the devil and anti-christ and false prophet are going to have their way with the earth, the devil already has his claws in all aspects of our lives.

I pretty much make fun of everyone. I try not to discriminate with my sarcasm. I’m 5’5” tall, and I make fun of short people all the time. I drive a Chevy truck, and I make fun of Chevy trucks.

I try not to live in fear of things I can’t control. I would absolutely go insane.

[Fliegender]

... I drive a Chevy truck, and I make fun of Chevy trucks.

I try not to live in fear of things I can’t control. I would absolutely go insane.

Okay, now I know you’re a nut. The only proper truck is made by Ford,

Mormons drive Ram. Jehovah’s Witnesses drive Nissan. Christian Scientists drive Toyota Tundras and Tacomas.

(What kinda Christian drives a Chevy? I now doubt your salvation.)

[DBowling]

(What kinda Christian drives a Chevy? I now doubt your salvation.)

Let's see...
I drive a Cruze
My wife drives an Equinox
One daughter drives a Cruze
Another daughter drives a Trax
And my son drives a hand-me-down Uplander

Care to guess what company I work for

[RickD]

... I drive a Chevy truck, and I make fun of Chevy trucks.

I try not to live in fear of things I can’t control. I would absolutely go insane.

Okay, now I know you’re a nut. The only proper truck is made by Ford,

Mormons drive Ram. Jehovah’s Witnesses drive Nissan. Christian Scientists drive Toyota Tundras and Tacomas.

(What kinda Christian drives a Chevy? I now doubt your salvation.)

Don’t you have a Stingray?

[RickD]

(What kinda Christian drives a Chevy? I now doubt your salvation.)

Let's see...
I drive a Cruze
My wife drives an Equinox
One daughter drives a Cruze
Another daughter drives a Trax
And my son drives a hand-me-down Uplander

Care to guess what company I work for

Kia?

[Fliegender]

... I drive a Chevy truck, and I make fun of Chevy trucks.

I try not to live in fear of things I can’t control. I would absolutely go insane.

Okay, now I know you’re a nut. The only proper truck is made by Ford,

Mormons drive Ram. Jehovah’s Witnesses drive Nissan. Christian Scientists drive Toyota Tundras and Tacomas.

(What kinda Christian drives a Chevy? I now doubt your salvation.)

Don’t you have a Stingray?

Oh...yeah. But we were talking TRUCKS. Genuine Christians buy FORD F-series trucks only.

[Fliegender]

(What kinda Christian drives a Chevy? I now doubt your salvation.)

Let's see...
I drive a Cruze
My wife drives an Equinox
One daughter drives a Cruze
Another daughter drives a Trax
And my son drives a hand-me-down Uplander

Care to guess what company I work for

I won’t say Kia like Einstein Rick D...it looks like you work for Chevrolet or General Motors. Cars and SUVs from Chevrolet are OK. Their Silverado pickup is also great but Christians only drive the F-150/250/350/450/550. I saw that in the Bible somewhere. Just ask Stu for confirmation.

[RickD]

(What kinda Christian drives a Chevy? I now doubt your salvation.)

Let's see...
I drive a Cruze
My wife drives an Equinox
One daughter drives a Cruze
Another daughter drives a Trax
And my son drives a hand-me-down Uplander

Care to guess what company I work for

I won’t say Kia like Einstein Rick D...it looks like you work for Chevrolet or General Motors. Cars and SUVs from Chevrolet are OK. Their Silverado pickup is also great but Christians only drive the F-150/250/350/450/550. I saw that in the Bible somewhere. Just ask Stu for confirmation.

You may be correct. Since some silverados and sierras are made in Mexico, and Mexico isn’t in the Bible, silverados and sierras are of the anti-Christ.