Can a born again Christian be unborn? OSAS

[claysmithr]

Please watch this video. The idea is that a Christian can die spiritually by apostatizing.

I believe that God's has fore knowledge of who is truly saved and who isn't.

[RickD]

[UsagiTsukino]

I mean if this was the case the 12 who made their mistakes wouldn't have been saved or the mistakes that other Christians made in the first days of the church.

[claysmithr]

I mean if this was the case the 12 who made their mistakes wouldn't have been saved or the mistakes that other Christians made in the first days of the church.

Did they apostatize until death? I don't think so, repentance is always available while we are alive.

[claysmithr]

Here are some more videos

[DBowling]

Some thoughts... (none of them terribly original)

1. We are saved by grace through faith
Eph 2:8-10

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

In this passage Paul tells us...
We are saved by grace through faith NOT BY works
We are saved by grace through faith TO DO good works

There is no work we can perform to gain salvation.
There is no work we can perform to lose salvation.


2. Those who believe are saved
John 3:18

18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Jesus is pretty clear on this point
Those who believe are saved.
Those who do not believe are not saved.


3. Which brings us to the main question of this thread.
Can a person who has believed in Jesus change their mind and choose not to believe in Jesus?

I actually think Scripture gives us a clear answer to this question
1 John 2:19

19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

According to John
If a person truly puts their faith in Jesus, then they will remain with Jesus.
If a person leaves Jesus, then that is evidence that they did not truly belong to Jesus in the first place.

We can't always tell the difference between wheat and tares/weeds.
That is the point Jesus makes in Matthew 13:24-30.

Those who genuinely put their faith and trust in Jesus are wheat, and will remain with Jesus.
If a person apostasizes and rejects Jesus, then according to John that is evidence that they are really a "tare/weed" and never really belonged to Jesus.

[Philip]

No matter how many Scriptures (https://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/ ... iever.html - and this is a great start) one shows people obsessed with believing salvation can be lost, it never seems to satisfy them! So, instead of embracing what the Apostle Paul and others have stated, they'd rather go with the unBiblical belief in some supposed "TEMPORARY eternal life" and thus fall into the a ongoing sense of eternal INSECURITY! Because, according to their belief, then NO one could ever truly know they would persevere until their very last breath. And, as we've redundantly noted, why would one believe that the very Salvation that they can do absolutely NOTHING to gain, simultaneously believe that per their own failable human efforts they'll be able to maintain it? As the reality would be, NO one is currently ETERNALLY saved, and they won't know if they truly are until their arrival into the presence of the Lord.

[claysmithr]

I agree with all your points, DBowling

[claysmithr]

Why are there then so many scriptures that warn to keep the faith then?

Also, take for example Joshua Harris. He was a pastor of a church, would you argue that he was never really saved (a tare) as a pastor of a church??

[claysmithr]

Also, do you believe God chooses who is saved and who is not, or that God wills all men to be saved but it's our freewill which determines if we believe or not.

[Philip]

Also, do you believe God chooses who is saved and who is not, or that God wills all men to be saved but it's our freewill which determines if we believe or not.

NO one can believe without God making it POSSIBLE. God chose, before we even existed, the ONLY category of those whom would be in Eternity with Him AS WELL AS His criteria for every person that eternal life would include. The other category is amongst the doomed who will forever reject Him. And God's ONLY criteria is faith in Him / Christ. God also chose to give us the ability to freely choose or reject Him and thus He fixed destinies of all of us based upon our RESPONSE to those two options (embrace or reject Him). And while He made possible the decision He's allowed us - no, God did not decide before time that Man A will go to Heaven and that Man B will spend eternity away from Him in punishment. Now, did God KNOW all of our destinations before time - absolutely, because He is all knowing!

[RickD]

DBowling wrote:
1)Those who genuinely put their faith and trust in Jesus are wheat, and will remain with Jesus.
2)If a person apostasizes and rejects Jesus, then according to John that is evidence that they are really a "tare/weed" and never really belonged to Jesus.

I see a contradiction between your 2 statements that I numbered 1 & 2.

You say in #1, that those who genuinely trust in Jesus will remain with Jesus. In other words, they trust in Jesus, and have eternal life.

But you say in #2, that those who trusted in Jesus, but then reject Jesus, never really belonged to Jesus.

The Bible is clear that when one trusts in Jesus, one has eternal life. John 5:24 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


Has eternal life. The verse doesn’t say that he who believes in Him who sent me, and keeps believing until death, WILL HAVE eternal life. The verse states that when one believes, one HAS eternal life, and has passed out of death into life.

So, now that we know scripture says that when one believes, one has eternal life, then what happens if one sins, and renounces Christ? We can’t say that he never belonged to Christ, because he trusted in Christ.

If one has eternal life at the moment of trusting in Him, and then loses eternal life when he renounces Jesus, as you say, was the eternal life only temporary for the time he believed?

[DBowling]

DBowling wrote:
1)Those who genuinely put their faith and trust in Jesus are wheat, and will remain with Jesus.
2)If a person apostasizes and rejects Jesus, then according to John that is evidence that they are really a "tare/weed" and never really belonged to Jesus.

I see a contradiction between your 2 statements that I numbered 1 & 2.

You say in #1, that those who genuinely trust in Jesus will remain with Jesus. In other words, they trust in Jesus, and have eternal life.

But you say in #2, that those who trusted in Jesus, but then reject Jesus, never really belonged to Jesus.

Not quite...
In number 2 I am saying that anyone who apostasizes and rejects Jesus never really put their trust in Jesus in the first place.
And that is precisely what John says in 1 John 2:19.

When we put our faith and trust in Jesus we are changed, we are "born again" we become a new creation.
And 1 John 2:19 tells us that those who have really been born again and become a new creation will remain in Jesus.

[RickD]

DBowling wrote:
1)Those who genuinely put their faith and trust in Jesus are wheat, and will remain with Jesus.
2)If a person apostasizes and rejects Jesus, then according to John that is evidence that they are really a "tare/weed" and never really belonged to Jesus.

I see a contradiction between your 2 statements that I numbered 1 & 2.

You say in #1, that those who genuinely trust in Jesus will remain with Jesus. In other words, they trust in Jesus, and have eternal life.

But you say in #2, that those who trusted in Jesus, but then reject Jesus, never really belonged to Jesus.

Not quite...
In number 2 I am saying that anyone who apostasizes and rejects Jesus never really put their trust in Jesus in the first place.
And that is precisely what John says in 1 John 2:19.

When we put our faith and trust in Jesus we are changed, we are "born again" we become a new creation.
And 1 John 2:19 tells us that those who have really been born again and become a new creation will remain in Jesus.

I’m confused. You said that “ anyone who apostasizes and rejects Jesus never really put their trust in Jesus in the first place.”

By definition, apostasize means:
to forsake or abandon one's belief, faith, or allegiance.

You can’t forsake a belief, if you never had the belief.

Help me understand. John Smith believes/trusts in Christ, and has eternal life. You say that John Smith never really believed/trusted in Christ, because he rejects Jesus.

What am I missing?

[DBowling]

Help me understand. John Smith believes/trusts in Christ, and has eternal life. You say that John Smith never really believed/trusted in Christ, because he rejects Jesus.

What am I missing?

Let's see what 1 John 2:19 says again...
"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us."

A. The first part of your example is
"John Smith believes/trusts in Christ"
This corresponds to the following in 1 John 2:19
"For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us;"

According to John those who truly put their faith and trust in Christ will remain in Christ and will not reject Christ.

B. Now for the second part of your example
This is a totally different situation from A.
"John Smith never really believed/trusted in Christ, because he rejects Jesus"
This corresponds to the following in 1 John 2:19
"their going showed that none of them belonged to us."

According to John those who reject Christ never really put their faith and trust in Christ and "did not really belong to us".