rapture

[Prodigal Son]

everyone always mentions it...what is rapture? a time, event to come, a feeling?

[Felgar]

everyone always mentions it...what is rapture? a time, event to come, a feeling?

Check out here http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/tribulation.html for more info. Basically the rapture is when God removes removes believers from the Earth prior to unleashing His wrath on Satan and his followers. There's debate as to whether current Christians will suffer the tribulation, which is extreme persecution at the hands of the anti-christ. Some say that the rapture will be pre-tribulation; thus allowing the escape of all that suffering. In this case the only ones to die for their faith would be those who convert after seeing the rapture and realizing the truth.

[Prodigal Son]

that's kind of scary. if someone was going to burn you alive or something similarly or even more horrible would you maintain your faith? is denying it just verbally a horrible sin? i wonder if i could be courageous enough to know that someone would destroy me if i admitted to my faith, but i'd do it anyways. i'd like to think so.

[Mastermind]

While I would never give up my faith, I have a feeling I wouldn't just sit around and wait to be tribulated. I'd probably go into hiding untill armageddon.

[Kurieuo]

As mentioned in the other thread to do with rapture, I found a good article by Dale Tooley on this issue - Christian Rapture: When & How?

Kurieuo.

[Prodigal Son]

thanks...good article.

[Anonymous]

Does it bother anyone that there is NO bibical evidence for such an event? Matthew 24 explicitly states that Jesus will appear AFTER the tribulation.

It seems like a pipe dream to me. Something that saddens me is to see people get TALKED into an idea that is contrary to what is written. For example take 1 Thess 4:

1Thessalonians
13)But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14)For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

This is one of the things that get overlooked; it says God will bring them with Him. This is not the same as taking them away.

15)For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16)For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is talking about the Coming of Jesus and we know from Matt 24 that this is after the Tribulation - at the last trumpet.

17)Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Now that everyone is in the air, where do they go.

Zechariah 14
3) Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4) And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5) And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

... and just to make sure we know who this is ...

1 Thess 3
13) To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Matthew 24
4) And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5) For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

This rapture theory seems alot like deception. Jesus is coming at the end of Tribulation. The saints will meet Him in the air and come down to Earth to take over the world.

Daniel 7
18) But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

[Mastermind]

There is a rapture. The debate is whether it is pre or after tribulation. Pre tribulation doesn't make sense. If we're all gone, who are the heathen dogs going to tribulate? The rapture is for those who survive the tribulation.

17)Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This is basically the rapture.

[Anonymous]

I am assuming that you don't mean that people are going to Heaven at that time but as the scripture says they will be caught up in the clouds.

I am not saying that there will not be a gathering of the saints at the coming of Jesus. If you call that a rapture - fine. I am referring to the doctrine of the rapture that says Jesus will take people to Heaven.

I can't find this in the book anywhere. I don't see people going to Heaven Pre-Tribulation or Post-Tribulation.

I agree the saints WILL meet Jesus in the air. But are they going to Heaven ? NO!

The reason I stress this is that people believe that they WILL NOT be here for the Tribulation when scripture says the saints WILL BE caught in the Tribulation.

Daniel 7
21) I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22) Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

The saints get persecuted and then the LORD comes and gives the kingdom(Earth) to the saints.

... again ...

Rev 13
7) And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

The rapture will not protect people from this. The Tribulation is NOT just for the wicked. Jesus warned us to watch for the Abomination of Desolation spoken of by Daniel. He will start the Tribulation before anyone goes anywhere.

[Mastermind]

Actually, I was always under the impression that only the faithful suffer during the tribulation. The wicked get punished after the good epople that are still alive after it are lifted from the earth.

[Mastermind]

Let's not forget that since it is a prophecy written by somebody with quite a bit less knowledge than us, it is quite likely that we don't have the right interpretation of ends of time. Hell, for all we know, when we meet Jesus in the clouds, we could be in space ships or something.

[Anonymous]

Let's not forget that since it is a prophecy written by somebody with quite a bit less knowledge than us

What exactly does this mean? Who is this somebody?

Remember when Jesus ascended - there was no space ship.
The angel said that Jesus would return in like manner. 'In a ship' would not be in 'like manner'.

After the first resurrection, those in the clouds will be immortal they will have that 'glorious body' - no need for anything.

[Mastermind]

I wasn't talking about Jesus(who I would assume wouldn't need a ship). I was talking about us.

[Anonymous]

I understand that you were not talking about Jesus. I assumed that. However, we will be just as equipped to hang out in the clouds as Jesus himself.

Philippians 3
20) For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21) Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

[Mastermind]

The transformation occurs after we are going into the clouds(assuming you gave the right verse sequence, which I think you did). God isn't exactly known for liberal uses of His power, so I suspect we will have to work a bit to get ourselves into the sky. I;m curious about the final battle though. Do Jesus and the saints fight the heathen population that remains on Earth after we rise to the heavens?