Why is God invisible to me?

[Nils]

A question for you Christians:

I find no valid arguments for the existence of God in spite of having learned a lot of Christianity and having discussed during many years with Christians. According to the Bible and what many on this forum believe, I will be sent to hell for eternal torture.

How is this possible, an almighty and good God that doesn't give me a single evidence that I find convincing about his existence? If he knows me, he certainly also knows which arguments I would acknowledge.

To me, his silence is still another argument for his nonexistence.

[DBowling]

A question for you Christians:

I find no valid arguments for the existence of God in spite of having learned a lot of Christianity and having discussed during many years with Christians. According to the Bible and what many on this forum believe, I will be sent to hell for eternal torture.

How is this possible, an almighty and good God that doesn't give me a single evidence that I find convincing about his existence? If he knows me, he certainly also knows which arguments I would acknowledge.

To me, his silence is still another argument for his nonexistence.

There are three primary reasons why I (as an engineer) am a Christian.

1. Science shows overwhelming evidence of an intelligent causal agent for the creation of the our universe
… that operates "super" naturally outside of space and time
… that finely tuned the "laws of nature" of our universe
… that has periodically infused new information into the biosphere of our planet

Does Science Point to God?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y02a28FrMKs


2. The life, death, and Resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth is one of the best (if not the best) attested historical event in ancient history .

The Historical Evidence for Jesus' Resurrection That Even Skeptics Believe
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ay_Db4R ... sdxQnNSthB


3. Personal Experience - Through over five decades of life, God has repeatedly made his presence known to me personally by providing guidance and at times protection in unexpected and unlikely ways.

In summary, the Christian God is a God that is firmly grounded in reality... scientific reality, historical reality, and in the reality of decades of personal experience
From my experience, the evidence for the reality God is overwhelming. And I have yet to see any argument disputing the existence of God that is grounded in reality (be it scientific reality, historical reality or logical reality)

I can't speak for you, but God has made himself very very visible to me.

[Philip]

Well, we can't see a black hole directly either, merely its shadow. But we can see their powerful impacts!

Why doesn't God make Himself visible to us? I think, as DB noted, He doesn't need to make Himself DIRECTLY visible. For one, He is Spirit. And even though Jesus also (and STILL) has a resurrected human form, we can't presently see Him. I think it's because God instead provided us very powerful and obvious reasons as to why He MUST exist. No logical person can explain blind, random, non-intelligent things producing the Big Bang's astounding precision, it's immediate beginning, or it's awesome, complex elements and designs, or it instantly beginning to brilliantly organize, or and stupendous precision of complexity and interactivity - and that's just within it's first few minutes! Add in things like biological cells (more sophisticated than any machine man has EVER produced - well, the evidences just pile up across many scientific disciplines. So, God would appear to see all these amazing things as FAR more than any reasonable person should need to at least know He's there. And remember all those people - especially the religious teachers, whom walked and spoke at length with Jesus, saw Him do amazing miracles - still, they denied Him. So why would God occasionally peeking through the clouds make people desire Him?

The other reason is, I believe, as mortals, we could not handle God's presence, power, and tremendous glory - we could not resist or deny Him, in our feeble mortal state. And God simply will not force ANYONE to desire Him. And there is an enormous difference between accepting God's existence and in committing ourselves to Him - as Scripture notes, the Devil well believes in God - and yet...

[Nils]

A question for you Christians:

I find no valid arguments for the existence of God in spite of having learned a lot of Christianity and having discussed during many years with Christians. According to the Bible and what many on this forum believe, I will be sent to hell for eternal torture.

How is this possible, an almighty and good God that doesn't give me a single evidence that I find convincing about his existence? If he knows me, he certainly also knows which arguments I would acknowledge.

To me, his silence is still another argument for his nonexistence.

There are three primary reasons why I (as an engineer) am a Christian.

1. Science shows overwhelming evidence of an intelligent causal agent for the creation of the our universe
… that operates "super" naturally outside of space and time
… that finely tuned the "laws of nature" of our universe
… that has periodically infused new information into the biosphere of our planet

Does Science Point to God?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y02a28FrMKs


2. The life, death, and Resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth is one of the best (if not the best) attested historical event in ancient history .

The Historical Evidence for Jesus' Resurrection That Even Skeptics Believe
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ay_Db4R ... sdxQnNSthB


3. Personal Experience - Through over five decades of life, God has repeatedly made his presence known to me personally by providing guidance and at times protection in unexpected and unlikely ways.

In summary, the Christian God is a God that is firmly grounded in reality... scientific reality, historical reality, and in the reality of decades of personal experience
From my experience, the evidence for the reality God is overwhelming. And I have yet to see any argument disputing the existence of God that is grounded in reality (be it scientific reality, historical reality or logical reality)

There are only a few things above that I agree with (but I can't comment now) and there is nothing above that I think is any evidence for God to me. One comment only: No scientific theory proves or disproves the existence of God. That's outside the scope of natural science. Interpretation of scientific facts is the job of philosophers and theologians.

I can't speak for you, but God has made himself very very visible to me.

I understand that you think so but my question is why he isn't visible to me. Why doesn't he want me to believe in him? What is your comment on that?

[DBowling]

I understand that you think so but my question is why he isn't visible to me. Why doesn't he want me to believe in him? What is your comment on that?

God wants everyone to believe in him!

That's why...
"since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made"
Thats why...
"he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

God's already done all the heavy lifting...
But if people close their eyes to the overabundance of evidence that is there for all to see, then they won't be able to see it.

A person (any person) just needs to open their eyes to see what God has put out there for everyone to see.

[Philip]

DB: A person (any person) just needs to open their eyes to see what God has put out there for everyone to see.

But a person will never see whatever it is that they DON'T WANT TO SEE! And as long as they desperately cling to maintaining in charge the little god they see every morning in the mirror - mistakenly believing accepting the REAL God would somehow make them miserable or that He's all about rules and unhappy conformity - well, they're intentionally making sure God can't penetrate their own control or desires. And so, such people continuously lie to themselves, insisting their disbelief makes logical sense. But to do that, they must believe in the existence of uncaused / uncontrolled / blind magical things!

[Nils]

Well, we can't see a black hole directly either, merely its shadow. But we can see their powerful impacts!

Why doesn't God make Himself visible to us? I think, as DB noted, He doesn't need to make Himself DIRECTLY visible. For one, He is Spirit. And even though Jesus also (and STILL) has a resurrected human form, we can't presently see Him. I think it's because God instead provided us very powerful and obvious reasons as to why He MUST exist.

Maybe you think that he provided you with good reasons but I don't find those reasons compelling. On the contrary, I find the reasons that for instance you and DB give are poor reasons.

No logical person can explain blind, random, non-intelligent things producing the Big Bang's astounding precision, it's immediate beginning, or it's awesome, complex elements and designs, or it instantly beginning to brilliantly organize, or and stupendous precision of complexity and interactivity - and that's just within it's first few minutes!

Haven't you heard of the Muliverse argument? If there are an infinite number of universes some of then will seem to be fine-tuned, by chance. There are also other possible solutions to the problem.

Add in things like biological cells (more sophisticated than any machine man has EVER produced - well, the evidences just pile up across many scientific disciplines.

Few professional biologist would take this as an evidence of a God. There are lot of processes in biology that are unknown in detail but science makes rapid progress. Assumed intervention by God is only a God-of- the-gaps argument. Not convincing.

So, God would appear to see all these amazing things as FAR more than any reasonable person should need to at least know He's there. And remember all those people - especially the religious teachers, whom walked and spoke at length with Jesus, saw Him do amazing miracles - still, they denied Him. So why would God occasionally peeking through the clouds make people desire Him?

I don't understand.

The other reason is, I believe, as mortals, we could not handle God's presence, power, and tremendous glory - we could not resist or deny Him, in our feeble mortal state.

I may be feeble and mortal but I need arguments to believe in anything and I don't find any valid arguments for a God.

And God simply will not force ANYONE to desire Him. And there is an enormous difference between accepting God's existence and in committing ourselves to Him - as Scripture notes, the Devil well believes in God - and yet...

My question is: Why doesn't God give me evidence that I find valid? If he doesn't I can't possibly believe that he exists, still less desire him. I don't see that you answered my question.

[Nils]

DB: A person (any person) just needs to open their eyes to see what God has put out there for everyone to see.

But a person will never see whatever it is that they DON'T WANT TO SEE! And as long as they desperately cling to maintaining in charge the little god they see every morning in the mirror - mistakenly believing accepting the REAL God would somehow make them miserable or that He's all about rules and unhappy conformity - well, they're intentionally making sure God can't penetrate their own control or desires. And so, such people continuously lie to themselves, insisting their disbelief makes logical sense. But to do that, they must believe in the existence of uncaused / uncontrolled / blind magical things!

What you say is that I'm intellectually dishonest! That I don't want to see the truth.

I want to see the truth and I use my intellect to find it, that's what I can do! This is not about wanting or opening eyes.

Yes, chance combined with selection can do astonishing things, but that's not magical. It is similar to the every day strategy: trial and error. Sometimes very useful. If you don't understand the secular explanations to Big bang and the evolution it's your problem. These explanations are accepted by the majority of the scientific community.

It is interesting that you indicate that God isn't able to "penetrate" my control and desires. I thought that the Christian God was almighty but the conclusion from what you say is that there are persons that God can't persuade to believe in him, persons like me that perhaps are born with a constitution that doesn't make them desire a powerful father which would make them easy to influence by unclear arguments. Is that what you mean?

[RickD]

Nils wrote:
My question is: Why doesn't God give me evidence that I find valid? If he doesn't I can't possibly believe that he exists, still less desire him. I don't see that you answered my question.

I can’t speak for you personally, but this kinda reminded me of the thread where DBowling and I were providing evidence to Stu, that the earth is not flat. Every single piece of evidence we provided was just dismissed. Stu believes the earth is flat. We couldn’t provide him with any evidence for a spherical earth, that he finds valid. Some people are just blinded to the truth.
I’m not saying that you are blinded, Nils, as I don’t know you well enough to say that. But it’s possible. Maybe you just refuse to see what’s plainly right in front of you.

Have you studied any of the metaphysical proofs of God?

[Philip]

Nils: It is interesting that you indicate that God isn't able to "penetrate" my control and desires. I thought that the Christian God was almighty but the conclusion from what you say is that there are persons that God can't persuade to believe in him, persons like me that perhaps are born with a constitution that doesn't make them desire a powerful father which would make them easy to influence by unclear arguments. Is that what you mean?

Obviously, I didn't say God COULDN'T compel you to believe - I said He won't FORCE you to - big difference! You are not unique in your skepticism - I, in my later teens, had come to a point of unbelief because of what I THOUGHT was a lack of evidences for God's existence. And then later I realized there are many powerful reasons to believe that some intelligence built and designed the universe. Now, that much is obvious - least it seems to me a reasonable person should conclude. But what if a person wants an UNREASONABLE evidence, only on their own terms (and typically, with information requirements they keep adding to). You see, God well knows when a person truly has a reasonable intellectual problem with this question - and clearly, some need more evidences than others do (I certainly did!). But God also knows when a person has closed off their heart and mind to Him, because as He's described and explained Himself across Scripture - well, they don't want the God that IS, but instead desire either no god / God at all or a some god or gods of their own creative (or borrowed) construct that isn't HIM! And so, God well knows that such people aren't seeking the truth about Him and that an intellectual information deficit is not their true problem.

As for the multiverse, etc. - please, this is old stuff - theoretical nonsense that has no proofs whatsoever and it's the equivalent of believing in magic - that blind, random, ongoing processes have eternally existed and produced stupendous brilliance in an eternal chain that never had a beginning (nor will it end). But as you've been well-reminded of on this site, it's connected to absolutely nothing without any explanation - the perfect atheist's argument. But THAT takes tremendous faith the accept. I would imagine, Nils, that you believe this multiverse is intelligent in it's own way - because every aspect of it shows what most of us would expect requires an intelligence. So, seems to me, you've realized the universe requires intelligence and at least something that is eternal - and you are correct about those two things.

[Nils]

I understand that you think so but my question is why he isn't visible to me. Why doesn't he want me to believe in him? What is your comment on that?

God wants everyone to believe in him!

If so, why doesn't he give me evidence that I think is valid?

That's why...
"since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made"

"clearly seen", not by me.

Thats why...
"he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

God's already done all the heavy lifting...
But if people close their eyes to the overabundance of evidence that is there for all to see, then they won't be able to see it.

" overabundance of evidence". You say so but I don't agree.

A person (any person) just needs to open their eyes to see what God has put out there for everyone to see.

This statement is remarkable. First, what does it mean to "open ones eyes"? Shall I stop trusting my own intellect and instead listen to self-claimed authorities? It is also remarkable to use such an argument in a discussion. Shall I answer that it is you that need to open your eyes so you can see my arguments, I could argue so at length. But what kind of discussion will we get then.

My question remains. If the Christian God exists, he knows what evidence I need but he doesn't give them.

[Nils]

Nils wrote:
My question is: Why doesn't God give me evidence that I find valid? If he doesn't I can't possibly believe that he exists, still less desire him. I don't see that you answered my question.

I can’t speak for you personally, but this kinda reminded me of the thread where DBowling and I were providing evidence to Stu, that the earth is not flat. Every single piece of evidence we provided was just dismissed. Stu believes the earth is flat. We couldn’t provide him with any evidence for a spherical earth, that he finds valid. Some people are just blinded to the truth.
I’m not saying that you are blinded, Nils, as I don’t know you well enough to say that. But it’s possible. Maybe you just refuse to see what’s plainly right in front of you.

Have you studied any of the metaphysical proofs of God?

If I was the only person that don't believe in a Christian God or even any God, the "blinded" argument would be stronger, but the Christians are not a majority. Before Darwin and modern astrophysics it was difficult to be an atheist, too many things had to be explained with no explanation seemingly possible. Today it's different. Besides that I have a long list with arguments against the belief in Gods.

I have read Feser's book and for a long time I discussed the The Principle of Sufficient Reason with Byblos in a thread with that name here on this forum. My intention was to reach a point where we agreed on what we didn't agree on but Byblos terminated the discussion before.

One of our main difference, I think, was that I didn't accept the concept of self-explanation as an explanation why an eternal personal God was preferable to an eternal impersonal Multiverse.

[DBowling]

I understand that you think so but my question is why he isn't visible to me. Why doesn't he want me to believe in him? What is your comment on that?

God wants everyone to believe in him!

If so, why doesn't he give me evidence that I think is valid?

That's why...
"since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made"

"clearly seen", not by me.

Thats why...
"he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

God's already done all the heavy lifting...
But if people close their eyes to the overabundance of evidence that is there for all to see, then they won't be able to see it.

" overabundance of evidence". You say so but I don't agree.

A person (any person) just needs to open their eyes to see what God has put out there for everyone to see.

This statement is remarkable. First, what does it mean to "open ones eyes"? Shall I stop trusting my own intellect and instead listen to self-claimed authorities? It is also remarkable to use such an argument in a discussion. Shall I answer that it is you that need to open your eyes so you can see my arguments, I could argue so at length. But what kind of discussion will we get then.

My question remains. If the Christian God exists, he knows what evidence I need but he doesn't give them.

God has given evidence that everyone can understand, from an uneducated person staring up at the stars, to the educated scientist who studies how the stars and the universe actually work.

The evidence is there for all to see.
Over 90% of the world's population believes some sort of a "god" exists, so the evidence is out there and the overwhelming majority of humans on the planet recognize at least some of the evidence that is out there.

If anyone chooses to dismiss the evidence, for whatever reason, that is a decision that they choose to make and has nothing to do with either the quality or the quantity of the evidence that exists.

God has given everyone the ability to choose to accept him or reject him.
And some people simply choose to reject God and the evidence for God.

[Nils]

God has given evidence that everyone can understand, from an uneducated person staring up at the stars, to the educated scientist who studies how the stars and the universe actually work.

The evidence is there for all to see.
Over 90% of the world's population believes some sort of a "god" exists, so the evidence is out there and the overwhelming majority of humans on the planet recognize at least some of the evidence that is out there.

If anyone chooses to dismiss the evidence, for whatever reason, that is a decision that they choose to make and has nothing to do with either the quality or the quantity of the evidence that exists.

God has given everyone the ability to choose to accept him or reject him.
And some people simply choose to reject God and the evidence for God.

I don't even know which "evidence" you are talking about. There are astronomers that believe in God and other that don't, so referring to them doesn't prove anything.
You don't know me but trust me, I don't "simply choose to reject God". If I did, why would I bother about this forum? Up to now, at least, God has not given me the ability to choose to accept him or reject him. Choosing to accept him without good evidence for his existence and with good evidence for his nonexistence would be intellectual harakiri to me.

[Nils]

Obviously, I didn't say God COULDN'T compel you to believe - I said He won't FORCE you to - big difference! You are not unique in your skepticism - I, in my later teens, had come to a point of unbelief because of what I THOUGHT was a lack of evidences for God's existence. And then later I realized there are many powerful reasons to believe that some intelligence built and designed the universe. Now, that much is obvious - least it seems to me a reasonable person should conclude. But what if a person wants an UNREASONABLE evidence, only on their own terms (and typically, with information requirements they keep adding to). You see, God well knows when a person truly has a reasonable intellectual problem with this question - and clearly, some need more evidences than others do (I certainly did!). But God also knows when a person has closed off their heart and mind to Him, because as He's described and explained Himself across Scripture - well, they don't want the God that IS, but instead desire either no god / God at all or a some god or gods of their own creative (or borrowed) construct that isn't HIM! And so, God well knows that such people aren't seeking the truth about Him and that an intellectual information deficit is not their true problem.

As I don't want or not want that God exists there is no difference between "compel" and "force". If he gives me good arguments I will believe, if not, I will not believe.

Unreasonable or reasonable evidence, who determines that? Those arguments/evidence I think are valid are what I think is reasonable. If you discuss how much evidence is neede, that question isn't important now, I don't see any argument at all (but the argument that many believe in Christianity and have personal experiences but the contra-argument is that that's valid for many religions)

As for the multiverse, etc. - please, this is old stuff - theoretical nonsense that has no proofs whatsoever and it's the equivalent of believing in magic - that blind, random, ongoing processes have eternally existed and produced stupendous brilliance in an eternal chain that never had a beginning (nor will it end). But as you've been well-reminded of on this site, it's connected to absolutely nothing without any explanation - the perfect atheist's argument. But THAT takes tremendous faith the accept. I would imagine, Nils, that you believe this multiverse is intelligent in it's own way - because every aspect of it shows what most of us would expect requires an intelligence. So, seems to me, you've realized the universe requires intelligence and at least something that is eternal - and you are correct about those two things.

Yes, there is no proof of a Multiverse as well as there is no proof of God, but work is ongoing and maybe there will be some evidence.

Regarding intelligence I don't think that a Multiverse needs any intelligence at all. It needs a power to create a universe with certain characteristics and it has been discussed (and theorized) that new universes could be created spontaneously. No energy seems to be needed. So an unlimited number of universes with different random characteristics could then easily be created without any intelligence. What you think is a sign of intelligence is only that we, of course, happen to live in a universe suitable for life while we don't notice the infinite number of universes not suitable for life.

Compare this with the omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent God. He needs an intelligence beyond all beliefs. Just as start, God has to fine tune the Universe, he had to forecast every event that will happen from the beginning to the end.