If God Made the Universe, Who Made God?

[Philip]

Many atheists seem to think that it's clever to ask a theist - "Well, then, WHO made God?" Because they think even an existing God would needs a source that created Him. And interestingly, many of them at least recognize the fact that SOMETHING must be eternal, as logically, nothing would exist.

Here ( https://enrichmentjournal.ag.org/Issues ... o-Made-God) we see some explanations why there are false assumptions behind the question, as well as answers to why God MUST exist!

[Kenny]

Many atheists seem to think that it's clever to ask a theist - "Well, then, WHO made God?" Because they think even an existing God would needs a source that created Him. And interestingly, many of them at least recognize the fact that SOMETHING must be eternal, as logically, nothing would exist.

Here ( https://enrichmentjournal.ag.org/Issues ... o-Made-God) we see some explanations why there are false assumptions behind the question, as well as answers to why God MUST exist!

That response is probably a retort of the claim that everything requires a source.
If a source is not required of God, it isn’t much of a leap for someone to assume it isn’t required for the Universe.

[Philip]

Kenny! Where have you been for so long? Healthy, I hope!

[Philip]

Kenny: If a source is not required of God, it isn’t much of a leap for someone to assume it isn’t required for the Universe.

Let's put aside, for the moment, the question of God. But anything that exists that had no source MUST be eternal, right? I mean, it's either one or the other, correct?

[Kenny]

Kenny! Where have you been for so long? Healthy, I hope!

Though not replying lately, I've always been around; thanks for asking.

[Kenny]

Kenny: If a source is not required of God, it isn’t much of a leap for someone to assume it isn’t required for the Universe.

Let's put aside, for the moment, the question of God. But anything that exists that had no source MUST be eternal, right? I mean, it's either one or the other, correct?

I agree.

[DBowling]

That response is probably a retort of the claim that everything requires a source.
If a source is not required of God, it isn’t much of a leap for someone to assume it isn’t required for the Universe.

Some thoughts...

A source is required for the universe because science tells us that our space/time continuum and the laws that govern our universe began around 14 billion years ago.

Scientific evidence for the beginning of our universe is a very compelling evidence for the existence of a causal agent of some sort for the universe.
The science around the Big Bang points to some key attributes about the causal agent for the universe.
- Since the causal agent created time itself, that indicates the causal agent acts outside of time.
- Since the causal agent created the physical laws of nature, that indicates the causal agent acts outside of the laws of nature of our universe.
- The complexity and fine tuning of the universe as well as the physical laws that govern our universe speak to the vast intelligence of the causal agent of our universe.

in a nutshell...
A source is required for the universe because science tells us when it began.
A source is not required for God because the causal agent for our universe acts outside of space, time, and the laws of nature.

[Kenny]

That response is probably a retort of the claim that everything requires a source.
If a source is not required of God, it isn’t much of a leap for someone to assume it isn’t required for the Universe.

Some thoughts...

A source is required for the universe because science tells us that our space/time continuum and the laws that govern our universe began around 14 billion years ago.

Scientific evidence for the beginning of our universe is a very compelling evidence for the existence of a causal agent of some sort for the universe.
The science around the Big Bang points to some key attributes about the causal agent for the universe.
- Since the causal agent created time itself, that indicates the causal agent acts outside of time.
- Since the causal agent created the physical laws of nature, that indicates the causal agent acts outside of the laws of nature of our universe.
- The complexity and fine tuning of the universe as well as the physical laws that govern our universe speak to the vast intelligence of the causal agent of our universe.

in a nutshell...
A source is required for the universe because science tells us when it began.
A source is not required for God because the causal agent for our universe acts outside of space, time, and the laws of nature.

The space/time continuum of 14 billion years ago that you speak of is when the singularity began to expand; known as the Big Bang right? By definition Universe means all that exists. Going by that definition, the Singularity was the Universe during that time.
Science does not claim the Universe began to exist 14 billion years ago, they claim the Universe as we know it began to exist 14 billion years ago. Prior to that, nobody knows. What science does not claim is a time in history when nothing existed.

[DBowling]

That response is probably a retort of the claim that everything requires a source.
If a source is not required of God, it isn’t much of a leap for someone to assume it isn’t required for the Universe.

Some thoughts...

A source is required for the universe because science tells us that our space/time continuum and the laws that govern our universe began around 14 billion years ago.

Scientific evidence for the beginning of our universe is a very compelling evidence for the existence of a causal agent of some sort for the universe.
The science around the Big Bang points to some key attributes about the causal agent for the universe.
- Since the causal agent created time itself, that indicates the causal agent acts outside of time.
- Since the causal agent created the physical laws of nature, that indicates the causal agent acts outside of the laws of nature of our universe.
- The complexity and fine tuning of the universe as well as the physical laws that govern our universe speak to the vast intelligence of the causal agent of our universe.

in a nutshell...
A source is required for the universe because science tells us when it began.
A source is not required for God because the causal agent for our universe acts outside of space, time, and the laws of nature.

The space/time continuum of 14 billion years ago that you speak of is when the singularity began to expand; known as the Big Bang right? By definition Universe means all that exists. Going by that definition, the Singularity was the Universe during that time.

Not really...

The Singularity from which the universe proceeded was infinitely small (ie a volume of zero).
So the singularity did not contain the universe.

Based on current scientific theory regarding the singularity,
The singularity marks the beginning of the matter and energy of the universe.
The singularity marks the beginning of space and time.
The singularity marks the beginning of the laws that govern our universe.

Science does not claim the Universe began to exist 14 billion years ago, they claim the Universe as we know it began to exist 14 billion years ago.

I don't follow you...

The Universe we exist in is the "Universe we know".
You correctly state that the "Universe we know" began to exist around 14 billion years ago.
So whatever caused the Universe that we live in to "begin to exist" operates outside the confines of the Universe that we live in.

Which means that causal agent operates outside the space of the universe that we live in.
It operates outside of the time of the universe that we live in.
It operates outside of the matter that makes up the universe that we live in.
And it operates outside the physical laws that govern the universe that we live in.

Here's a short video that discusses how the Big Bang Theory points to a finite beginning point for our universe.
Big Bang: Something from Nothing?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m82PmE6oASo

[Kenny]

That response is probably a retort of the claim that everything requires a source.
If a source is not required of God, it isn’t much of a leap for someone to assume it isn’t required for the Universe.

Some thoughts...

A source is required for the universe because science tells us that our space/time continuum and the laws that govern our universe began around 14 billion years ago.

Scientific evidence for the beginning of our universe is a very compelling evidence for the existence of a causal agent of some sort for the universe.
The science around the Big Bang points to some key attributes about the causal agent for the universe.
- Since the causal agent created time itself, that indicates the causal agent acts outside of time.
- Since the causal agent created the physical laws of nature, that indicates the causal agent acts outside of the laws of nature of our universe.
- The complexity and fine tuning of the universe as well as the physical laws that govern our universe speak to the vast intelligence of the causal agent of our universe.

in a nutshell...
A source is required for the universe because science tells us when it began.
A source is not required for God because the causal agent for our universe acts outside of space, time, and the laws of nature.

The space/time continuum of 14 billion years ago that you speak of is when the singularity began to expand; known as the Big Bang right? By definition Universe means all that exists. Going by that definition, the Singularity was the Universe during that time.

Not really...

The Singularity from which the universe proceeded was infinitely small (ie a volume of zero).
So the singularity did not contain the universe.

Based on current scientific theory regarding the singularity,
The singularity marks the beginning of the matter and energy of the universe.
The singularity marks the beginning of space and time.
The singularity marks the beginning of the laws that govern our universe.

Science does not claim the Universe began to exist 14 billion years ago, they claim the Universe as we know it began to exist 14 billion years ago.

I don't follow you...

The Universe we exist in is the "Universe we know".
You correctly state that the "Universe we know" began to exist around 14 billion years ago.
So whatever caused the Universe that we live in to "begin to exist" operates outside the confines of the Universe that we live in.

Which means that causal agent operates outside the space of the universe that we live in.
It operates outside of the time of the universe that we live in.
It operates outside of the matter that makes up the universe that we live in.
And it operates outside the physical laws that govern the universe that we live in.

Here's a short video that discusses how the Big Bang Theory points to a finite beginning point for our universe.
Big Bang: Something from Nothing?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m82PmE6oASo

Here are a couple of links that explain what I stated.
https://byjus.com/free-ias-prep/big-bang-theory/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang

(under Misconceptions)
One of the common misconceptions about the Big Bang model is that it fully explains the origin of the universe. However, the Big Bang model does not describe how energy, time, and space were caused, but rather it describes the emergence of the present universe from an ultra-dense and high-temperature initial state

You are trying to explain the origin of the Universe; the Big Bang does not explain that. Now I’m sure there are a lot of people (even scientists) who go around making calculated guesses about this or that, but that’s not science, those are just guesses. As far as I know, there is no scientific theory that speaks of the size of the singularity nor the origin of it.

[Kenny]

I don't follow you...

The Universe we exist in is the "Universe we know".
You correctly state that the "Universe we know" began to exist around 14 billion years ago.
So whatever caused the Universe that we live in to "begin to exist" operates outside the confines of the Universe that we live in.

Which means that causal agent operates outside the space of the universe that we live in.
It operates outside of the time of the universe that we live in.
It operates outside of the matter that makes up the universe that we live in.
And it operates outside the physical laws that govern the universe that we live in.

I’ve also noticed you seem to be going with science when you find it convenient, and going with religion to fill in the gaps that you can’t fill with science. You should pick one or the other. If you gonna go with science, forget about that casual agent that operates outside of the Universe, because that is a religious claim, not a scientific one. If you gonna go with religion, then forget about that big bang 14 billion years ago, because that is a scientific explanation, not a religious one.

[DBowling]

(under Misconceptions)
One of the common misconceptions about the Big Bang model is that it fully explains the origin of the universe. However, the Big Bang model does not describe how energy, time, and space were caused, but rather it describes the emergence of the present universe from an ultra-dense and high-temperature initial state

You are correct that the Big Bang model does not describe HOW energy, time, and space were created.
However, as your wikipedia link points out, the Big Bang model does speak to WHEN energy, time, and space of our universe were created.

You are trying to explain the origin of the Universe; the Big Bang does not explain that. Now I’m sure there are a lot of people (even scientists) who go around making calculated guesses about this or that, but that’s not science, those are just guesses. As far as I know, there is no scientific theory that speaks of the size of the singularity nor the origin of it.

I am trying to explain that the Big Bang theory indicates (to quote you)
"the Universe as we know it began to exist 14 billion years"

As you point out scientists do not know HOW the universe began, but the Bing Bang theory does indicate WHEN the universe began.

So, do you agree or disagree with the following statements about the Big Bang theory?
The Big Bang theory describes WHEN the matter and energy in our universe began
The Big Bang theory describes WHEN our space/time continuum began
The Big Bang theory describes WHEN the physical laws that govern our universe began

Once we have established that the universe, matter and energy, the laws of nature and space and time all have a beginning, Then even without knowing HOW the universe came into being we can identify some very basic parameters for a cause capable of producing that beginning.

[DBowling]

For those who are interested, here is a 45 minute video where Stephen Meyer discusses a number of topics regarding the history of the Big Bang theory, the science of the Big Bang theory, and a number of theories scientist have about the beginning of our universe.

Stephen Meyer Discusses the Big Bang, Einstein, Hawking, & More
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_AeA4fMHhI

[Kenny]

As you point out scientists do not know HOW the universe began, but the Bing Bang theory does indicate WHEN the universe began.

So, do you agree or disagree with the following statements about the Big Bang theory?
The Big Bang theory describes WHEN the matter and energy in our universe began
The Big Bang theory describes WHEN our space/time continuum began
The Big Bang theory describes WHEN the physical laws that govern our universe began

The Big Bang theory does not explain WHEN matter and energy of our Universe (Singularity) began. The Singularity already exist in the theory and as pointed out before, it only explains how the Universe went from the singularity to what we know of it now. As far as time/space continuum or the laws of physics, I don't know if those began with the big bang or not.

[DBowling]

As you point out scientists do not know HOW the universe began, but the Bing Bang theory does indicate WHEN the universe began.

So, do you agree or disagree with the following statements about the Big Bang theory?
The Big Bang theory describes WHEN the matter and energy in our universe began
The Big Bang theory describes WHEN our space/time continuum began
The Big Bang theory describes WHEN the physical laws that govern our universe began

The Big Bang theory does not explain WHEN matter and energy of our Universe (Singularity) began.

Sure it does...
At or after time = 0.
For example.. from your wikipedia article
"Inflation stopped at around the 10−33 to 10−32 seconds mark, with the universe's volume having increased by a factor of at least 1078. Reheating occurred until the universe obtained the temperatures required for the production of a quark–gluon plasma as well as all other elementary particles."

The Singularity already exist in the theory and as pointed out before, it only explains how the Universe went from the singularity to what we know of it now. As far as time/space continuum or the laws of physics, I don't know if those began with the big bang or not.

According to the Big Bang theory the singularity existed AT time = 0, and since both space and time came into existence with the Big Bang, then 'already existed' has no meaning before time = 0.

the theory describes an increasingly concentrated cosmos preceded by a singularity in which space and time lose meaning

Which is why whatever caused the Big Bang singularity by definition operates outside of both space and time.