Hugh Ross and RTB on Neanderthals and Denisovans

[Philip]

Here's what Hugh Ross and his Reasons.org / Reasons to Believe organization officially believes concerning Neanderthals and Denisovans: https://reasons.org/question/dont-neand ... ns-evolved

[Armyman]

They were humans, but a different variant.

[DBowling]

I watched Nova's "Great Human Odyssey" recently.
In this show there was a very interesting discussion on why Neanderthals went extinct in Europe while Modern Humans survived.

Modern Humans and Neanderthals coexisted in the same environment and evidently interbred on rare occasions. Anthropologists are interested in why Humans survived while Neanderthals went extinct in the same environment at the same time.

One archaeologist pointed to a significant discovery that might be the key to understanding this question. Human artifacts in Europe involve symbolic artifacts like small carved figures and even the earliest musical instruments such as small carved flutes.

These sympolic artifacts mark a significant cultural gap between Human and Neanderthal cultures.
I think the presence of these symbolic artifacts in modern Human culture could possibly be manifestations of the "image of God" in Modern Humans.

And it is this capacity for symbolic thought that allowed Modern Humans (species homo sapiens sapiens) to adapt and "fill and subdue the earth" while all other homonid species went extinct.

[Armyman]

I watched Nova's "Great Human Odyssey" recently.
In this show there was a very interesting discussion on why Neanderthals went extinct in Europe while Modern Humans survived.

Modern Humans and Neanderthals coexisted in the same environment and evidently interbred on rare occasions. Anthropologists are interested in why Humans survived while Neanderthals went extinct in the same environment at the same time.

One archaeologist pointed to a significant discovery that might be the key to understanding this question. Human artifacts in Europe involve symbolic artifacts like small carved figures and even the earliest musical instruments such as small carved flutes.

These sympolic artifacts mark a significant cultural gap between Human and Neanderthal cultures.
I think the presence of these symbolic artifacts in modern Human culture could possibly be manifestations of the "image of God" in Modern Humans.

And it is this capacity for symbolic thought that allowed Modern Humans (species homo sapiens sapiens) to adapt and "fill and subdue the earth" while all other homonid species went extinct.

Thing was though that Neanderthals had those things. They even made crude art, and buried dead.
I think Neanderthals were human, but an early strain.

[DBowling]

I watched Nova's "Great Human Odyssey" recently.
In this show there was a very interesting discussion on why Neanderthals went extinct in Europe while Modern Humans survived.

Modern Humans and Neanderthals coexisted in the same environment and evidently interbred on rare occasions. Anthropologists are interested in why Humans survived while Neanderthals went extinct in the same environment at the same time.

One archaeologist pointed to a significant discovery that might be the key to understanding this question. Human artifacts in Europe involve symbolic artifacts like small carved figures and even the earliest musical instruments such as small carved flutes.

These sympolic artifacts mark a significant cultural gap between Human and Neanderthal cultures.
I think the presence of these symbolic artifacts in modern Human culture could possibly be manifestations of the "image of God" in Modern Humans.

And it is this capacity for symbolic thought that allowed Modern Humans (species homo sapiens sapiens) to adapt and "fill and subdue the earth" while all other homonid species went extinct.

Thing was though that Neanderthals had those things.

Could you give me a link please.
I was not aware that Neanderthals carved figurines or made musical instruments such as carved flutes.
To the best of my knowledge those kinds of artifacts were only produced by Modern Humans (species homo sapiens sapiens)

[Armyman]

I'm on mobile but I'll try

[Armyman]

https://www.sapiens.org/archaeology/nea ... discovery/

[DBowling]

https://www.sapiens.org/archaeology/nea ... discovery/

I have seen those before, but there is nothing about carving figurines or musical instruments in that link

[Armyman]

https://www.divje-babe.si/en/the-neanderthal-flute/

[DBowling]

https://www.divje-babe.si/en/the-neanderthal-flute/

Thanks... I'll have to look into this a little deeper

[Armyman]

https://www.divje-babe.si/en/the-neanderthal-flute/

Thanks... I'll have to look into this a little deeper

It honestly surprised me to see that neanderthaloids are not considered truly human on this site. Maybe over a century ago that would be sound. But there has piled up too much evidence, from artifacts, to dna, to anatomy, that shows otherwise. Same goes for denisovans and a few other forms.

[DBowling]

https://www.divje-babe.si/en/the-neanderthal-flute/

Thanks... I'll have to look into this a little deeper

It honestly surprised me to see that neanderthaloids are not considered truly human on this site. Maybe over a century ago that would be sound. But there has piled up too much evidence, from artifacts, to dna, to anatomy, that shows otherwise. Same goes for denisovans and a few other forms.

The Nova presentation that I refer to above is not from this site, and they draw a sharp distinction between Humans and Neanderthals based on artifacts and other archaeological evidence.

The Divje Babe flute is an example of an artifact that is surrounded in controversy:
Is it really a flute?
Was it formed by an animal?
Was it formed by Neanderthals?
Was it formed by Cro-Magnons (Humans)?
Some archaeologists claim it is a Neanderthal flute, but there are legitimate questions regarding whether the Divje Babe flute is either a flute or Neanderthal.

From Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divje_Babe_flute

It is primarily the artifact evidence that leads anthropologists to believe that there was a significant gap in symbolic thinking between modern humans (species homo sapiens sapiens) and all the other homonid species that went extinct tens of thousands of years ago.

[Armyman]

https://www.divje-babe.si/en/the-neanderthal-flute/

Thanks... I'll have to look into this a little deeper

It honestly surprised me to see that neanderthaloids are not considered truly human on this site. Maybe over a century ago that would be sound. But there has piled up too much evidence, from artifacts, to dna, to anatomy, that shows otherwise. Same goes for denisovans and a few other forms.

The Nova presentation that I refer to above is not from this site, and they draw a sharp distinction between Humans and Neanderthals based on artifacts and other archaeological evidence.

The Divje Babe flute is an example of an artifact that is surrounded in controversy:
Is it really a flute?
Was it formed by an animal?
Was it formed by Neanderthals?
Was it formed by Cro-Magnons (Humans)?
Some archaeologists claim it is a Neanderthal flute, but there are legitimate questions regarding whether the Divje Babe flute is either a flute or Neanderthal.

From Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divje_Babe_flute

It is primarily the artifact evidence that leads anthropologists to believe that there was a significant gap in symbolic thinking between modern humans (species homo sapiens sapiens) and all the other homonid species that went extinct tens of thousands of years ago.

There is also little evidence to show homo sapiens sapiens before 100000 years ago had such stuff also. Again this is a fuzzy topic which can be interpreted many ways.

[DBowling]

Here is an Interesting lecture that I came across

Modern Humans’ Earliest Artwork and Music: New European Discoveries
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp7WqPiCmPM

[Philip]

DB, I greatly enjoyed that video - really some amazing finds covered. Archaeology has come a tremendous way from the era of those raiding tombs and treasure hunting for fame and fortune!