Holy Spirit Gifts still for today??

[puritan lad]

What is true in the Old Testament isn't necessarily true for the new covenant. In the Old Testament the prophet was a mediator between man and God. The Spirit didn't indwell every believer.

Yes He did.

But this situation changed drastically on the day of Pentecost. The Spirit is now God's universal gift for every believer. From this day on things would never be the same again. A believer under the new covenant can now receive inerrant revelations through the Spirit. But when he perceives it and interprets it, it is not infallible any longer. To my mind this is the crucial difference between the prophetic ministry in the Old and the New Testament.

Says Who? Where is there scriptural support for this? The "prophet" in the New Testament also spoke the Words of the Living God. (Acts 13:1-2). God's Words are infallible, period. If it is fallible, then it is not prophecy but a lie, and is certainly not able to "edify, exhort, and comfort". (1 Cor. 14:3)

Dear Puritan lad, you often speak of how stupid all the people are who don't believe in the Theology you adhere to. You speak of poor exegesis and others being biblically illiterates. Never forget which people in the Bible were proud of being more religious than others (eg. Lk 18:9-14). Let us reason together, let us encourage one another but let us never belittle the faith of another believer! I may not agree with every point you make but I appreciate the wisdom God gave you.
God bless.

I don't remember calling anyone "stupid". I'm not trying to promote myself as proud or better than others. The point is that Pentecostal ministers, as a matter of common observation, do not know their bibles as much as other ministers. This holds true for laypeople as well. The reason is that they often ignore "teaching them to observe all things" in favor of emphasizing on the so-called "gifts". I used to go to Pentecostal churches, and trust me, the pastors had all of the "gifts", yet were seriously lacking in even the most basic Bible knowledge. They have services that will last for 3 or 4 hours without a sermon. Instead "the Spirit takes over", and a variety of manifestations take place, including "being slain in the Spirit", "holy laughter", and "barking" like dogs. (Can't find these in the Bible anywhere.) When the service is over, they will rejoice on "what God did today". Of course, when you ask them, "What did God do?", good luck in getting a specific answer.

What I'm trying to accomplish in this thread is to get people to consider the ramifications of "prophecy" today. I realize the sensitivity on this subject, as people get edgy when told that they do not have these special gifts when they are convinced that they do. However, this is serious business. The Old and New Covenants aren't as different as many would like to believe, and the New Testament also gives warnings against false prophets (2 Peter 2:1, 1 John 4:1). 1 John 4:1, tells us to test the spirits to determine whether or not they are false prophets. How do we do this? Again, Deuteronomy 18:18-22 is the test, and this test requires 100% accuracy. Those who claim to have the "gift of prophecy" and yet speak fallible words are not prophets but liars. The good thing for them in the New Covenant is that they are no longer stoned to death, but at the very least, they should be exposed and ignored by Christians. Obviously, you won't agree, but I will still hold Deuteronomy 18:18-22 as the test of a true prophet, and this test, along with other issues, has convinced me that these gifts have ceased.

[kateliz]

But what if, Puritan Lad, you one day do meet a modern day prophet who fits your requirements? What if they are out there somewhere, giving prophecies to relativley small groups of people? Is it in any way possible according to your beliefs for this to happen? Many are the false prophets, and they are definetely popular with the masses. Real prophets are never well-liked, I'm sure you'd agree. They get poo-poo-ed and pushed under the rug and trampled on. Just because you haven't met such a person does not mean they don't exist. Especially... shoot, side-tracked, and now no time to finish! Maybe later. lol Sorry!

[Jbuza]

Doesn't the Pope claim to be a Prophet? or at least calim to speak from God?

Can't A man speek as a prophet from God by choice? If the Spirit of God moved a person to speak about things to come wouldn't he be a prophet?

Would there be anything wrong for example if I said, "I come to you in the name of the I AM and truthfully tell you that He is the Mighty God whose Spirit came over the woman Mary and conceived Jesus Christ who will return in Glory?"

Isn't a Man that speaks directed by the Holy Spirit that Christians are partakers of with Jesus Christ speaking from God?

Couldn't a Man be filled with th Spirit of God make a vow and speak the truth about God even like the prophets did?

OR is your view that God must com eto him in a vision and tell him specific things to say? Many prophets including Jesus quoted scripture.

Don't know.

[puritan lad]

But what if, Puritan Lad, you one day do meet a modern day prophet who fits your requirements? What if they are out there somewhere, giving prophecies to relativley small groups of people? Is it in any way possible according to your beliefs for this to happen? Many are the false prophets, and they are definetely popular with the masses. Real prophets are never well-liked, I'm sure you'd agree. They get poo-poo-ed and pushed under the rug and trampled on. Just because you haven't met such a person does not mean they don't exist. Especially... shoot, side-tracked, and now no time to finish! Maybe later. lol Sorry!

Kateliz,

This is the quandry of modern day Pentecostalism. If a prophet speaks errant words, then he is a false prophet. If, however, he "meets my requirements", and speaks inerrant, infallible, authoritative words that are on par with the Bible, then what does that say about the Bible being "the whole council of God", which cannot be added to (Rev. 22:18)? Jesus tells us to live by "every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God". If, as you suggest, prophecy still occurs, then we have difficult time diciphering just what that is.

I do want to clarify that this does not mean that God no longer speaks to us. He moves on our hearts and guides us in many ways. But "prophecy" is another animal altogether. In prophecy, the prophet literally becomes the mouthpiece of God. I hold, for a variety of reasons, that this no longer happens.

[ryo dokomi]

What is true in the Old Testament isn't necessarily true for the new covenant. In the Old Testament the prophet was a mediator between man and God. The Spirit didn't indwell every believer.

Yes He did.

what scripture do you have to back that up?

In prophecy, the prophet literally becomes the mouthpiece of God.

why wouldn't God use men like that to speak to His people. if His people aren't willing to listen to their hearts, as you say is the only way God speaks to people nowadays, how will he get his message to them?

Jesus tells us to live by "every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God".

God used Prophets to be His mouth before, why not today. it would not be adding to scripture if what God had to say was already in the scripture.

I hold, for a variety of reasons, that this no longer happens.

you should look outside of your little bubble, look at other peoples lives, experiences, and not just the pentecostal church that you went to. i am NOT, i repeat, NOT a penacostal, but just a Christian, period. the Gifts are basic doctrine, ALL Gifts, whether you believe it or not, you WILL see for yourself soon.

i am done with this subject, this is my last post on this, don't ask for any reply because i wont be giving any, unless it is absolutely necessary.

[puritan lad]

I'll close my stance on this debate with a ridiculous quote from the Introduction to Tommy Tenney's masterpiece of deception, The God Chasers. (Other TBN teachers aren't much better).

"Truth is where God's been. Revelation is where God is….Unfortunately, the Church today spends countless hours and much energy debating where God has been...[God chasers] want to run hard and hot on this trail of truth until they arrive at the point of revelation, where He presently exists….God chasers don't want to just study from the moldy pages of what God has done; they're anxious to see what God is doing. There is a vast difference between present truth and past truth."

So much for the idea that prophecy doesn't add to the Word of God. Sad, isn't it?

[Jbuza]

So much for the idea that prophecy doesn't add to the Word of God. Sad, isn't it?

But wouldn't prophecy be more words from God? When John wrote Revelations wasn't he adding to the Word of God by prophecy?

[Fortigurn]

So much for the idea that prophecy doesn't add to the Word of God. Sad, isn't it?

But wouldn't prophecy be more words from God?

Yes, thus not 'adding to' the Word of God.

When John wrote Revelations wasn't he adding to the Word of God by prophecy?

No, he was provding a revelation of more of the Word. He wasn't adding X to Y, he was simply providing more Y.

[Jbuza]

So much for the idea that prophecy doesn't add to the Word of God. Sad, isn't it?

But wouldn't prophecy be more words from God?

Yes, thus not 'adding to' the Word of God.

When John wrote Revelations wasn't he adding to the Word of God by prophecy?

No, he was provding a revelation of more of the Word. He wasn't adding X to Y, he was simply providing more Y.

I understand. God's Word is God's word and it is known that there is more of it that we haven't knwon or heard yet.

[ryo dokomi]

i must ask a question just to finish my argument. if ALL Prophecy was for the writing of Scripture, why does the Bible say to Desire all gifts, but esspecially that you may Prophecy...and also, what happened to all the Prophecies of the people that didnt write Scripture? Why do you blindedly desregard that fact, ALL men were to Prophecy, NOT ALL wrote Scripture, so that means that NOT all Prophecy is for Scripture.
i BEG you to try and denie that one when it is right in your face.