Christianity: the greatest love story ever told

[Kenny]

You were never a “former Christian” kenny. Never, ever. You were just practicing the mumbo jumbo you learned as a kid. I suspect your single mother probably was just practicing mumbo jumbo herself.

Wow! Are you actually bringing my mother into this? You gonna slander my mother by calling her a single mother that probably practices mumbo jumbo? Why would you say something like that about someone’s mother? I thought you were better than that; you are supposed to be better than that. Unless you are willing to apologize, I think we're done here.

[Philip]

How about let's dial it back a bit, guys!

Sarcasm gets going back and forth, emotions kick in on top of already entrenched views and opposing positions - especially when it comes to discussing our core beliefs. I don't want to lock the thread because it's an important conversation, but we still gotta stay civil. We've all gone too far around here, time to time. I sure know I have. I used to get terribly aggressive and direct in heated discussions - but typically, I could have made my point much more effectively without getting too personal or insulting. Thing is, when we want someone to understand, persuade or agree with our view, ticking them off never accomplishes that. So why do we do it? Guess that's why this forum needs moderating, from time to time.

Ken, obviously no one here can know how you were raised of with what specific sensibilities. Your parents may well have been / and are truly Spirit-filled Christians - and I hope so. And so no one should automatically assume such things. I'm curious, though, how has your atheism impacted your relationships within your family? Does it upset them? Do they talk with you about it? What do they say to you?

[1over137]

Speaking about love....
I always was and still am fascinated by Paul's description of love in 1 Corinthians 13:1-13 NIV

13 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

To me, this description is the best one I have ever seen.


Ok, guys, be nice to each other

[Fliegender]

You were never a “former Christian” kenny. Never, ever. You were just practicing the mumbo jumbo you learned as a kid. I suspect your single mother probably was just practicing mumbo jumbo herself.

Wow! Are you actually bringing my mother into this? You gonna slander my mother by calling her a single mother that probably practices mumbo jumbo? Why would you say something like that about someone’s mother? I thought you were better than that; you are supposed to be better than that. Unless you are willing to apologize, I think we're done here.

We all get an important part of our upbringing from our parents. For those unfortunate enough to have been fathered by a deadbeat dad, their overworked mother becomes all the more important. I have seen a lot - really a lot - of atheists come from homes where there was no father figure. This type of atheist is the one who has the “daddy issues” I mentioned in previous posts.

Single mothers and divorced parents are cultural markers of Western civilizations, especially among nominal Christians. Jewish and Muslim couples tend to stay together which may be why atheist children from these backgrounds don’t go proselytizing on forums. Nor do they come across as angry. It’s not surprising that boys - mostly boys - from fatherless families drift to atheism: deadbeat dad = deadbeat god. How can you trust a Father God when your own father was a scumbag who abandoned his family?

[Fliegender]

However, things have probably changed for kids raised in atheist homes nowadays, with the internet and modern sensibilities. When you came up, we weren't nearly as far into a post-Christian culture / influence - as back in the day, even non-believers were much more in line with traditional, Christian-influenced morality.

Yes, it’s true what you wrote, above.

I only know of one 20-something atheist man now. He’s quite militant about his atheism. His father is a militant atheist (from a staunchly Catholic family) and his mother (now deceased) was a nominal Catholic. The kid’s father used to be a friend. We avoid each other now but I will occasionally exchange with the young man. He’s a nice kid, just mixed up as most atheists with such a background are. (Actually, I should say *all atheists with such a background are*.)

[Kenny]

You were never a “former Christian” kenny. Never, ever. You were just practicing the mumbo jumbo you learned as a kid. I suspect your single mother probably was just practicing mumbo jumbo herself.

Wow! Are you actually bringing my mother into this? You gonna slander my mother by calling her a single mother that probably practices mumbo jumbo? Why would you say something like that about someone’s mother? I thought you were better than that; you are supposed to be better than that. Unless you are willing to apologize, I think we're done here.

We all get an important part of our upbringing from our parents. For those unfortunate enough to have been fathered by a deadbeat dad, their overworked mother becomes all the more important. I have seen a lot - really a lot - of atheists come from homes where there was no father figure. This type of atheist is the one who has the “daddy issues” I mentioned in previous posts.

Single mothers and divorced parents are cultural markers of Western civilizations, especially among nominal Christians. Jewish and Muslim couples tend to stay together which may be why atheist children from these backgrounds don’t go proselytizing on forums. Nor do they come across as angry. It’s not surprising that boys - mostly boys - from fatherless families drift to atheism: deadbeat dad = deadbeat god. How can you trust a Father God when your own father was a scumbag who abandoned his family?

What does any of that have to do with me, or my mother that you've felt a need to insult?

[Kenny]

Ken, obviously no one here can know how you were raised of with what specific sensibilities. Your parents may well have been / and are truly Spirit-filled Christians - and I hope so. And so no one should automatically assume such things. I'm curious, though, how has your atheism impacted your relationships within your family? Does it upset them? Do they talk with you about it? What do they say to you?

They’re praying for me. My mother passed a few months back, but my dad, and my siblings are all praying for me I’m sure. We get along fine, we just don’t talk about religion (or politics) when we get together because those are sensitive subjects to them. As I mentioned before, I wish I could tell them I believe again; just because I know how happy that would make them feel; and I would love to be able to do that for them because I love them dearly, but lying to them would be worse; and more of a betrayal. I will always know no matter how much good I do, how nice I am, it will never be enough; I think they would rather I were a wicked person, or even a criminal who still believed, than who I am now. They don’t act that way towards me, they try to pretend as if it doesn’t hurt them, but I know it does because I’ve been there.

[Philip]

Ken, I'm so sorry to hear about your mom - I know that has to have been really hard on your entire family, and especially your dad. My dad passed away 21 years ago and my mom about 12 years. But when the first of your parents passes, it's really the toughest of all, and kind of a shock - it's something you've never yet experienced, to that point. Was your mom old? My dad made it to 79 and mom to 85. Dad's passing was shocking but mercifully sudden - though it didn't seem merciful at the time. And then mom had Alzheimers for 10 years - a slow death because it robbed her of her personality. My mom meant everything to me, as I'm sure yours did as well!

[1over137]

Ken, I also am sorry for your loss. May the love of your mum be within you always.

[Kenny]

Ken, I'm so sorry to hear about your mom - I know that has to have been really hard on your entire family, and especially your dad. My dad passed away 21 years ago and my mom about 12 years. But when the first of your parents passes, it's really the toughest of all, and kind of a shock - it's something you've never yet experienced, to that point. Was your mom old? My dad made it to 79 and mom to 85. Dad's passing was shocking but mercifully sudden - though it didn't seem merciful at the time. And then mom had Alzheimers for 10 years - a slow death because it robbed her of her personality. My mom meant everything to me, as I'm sure yours did as well!

Thank-you. My mom was 79 years old and my dad is 82. My mom’s mind was strong but her body was weak, but my aunt is going through Alzheimer so I have an idea of what you were dealing with, with your mother. Such a horrible affliction to have to go through. I know as we get up in age, these are things you have to deal with, but that doesn’t make it any easier.

[Kenny]

Ken, I also am sorry for your loss. May the love of your mum be within you always.

Thank-you

[Fliegender]

They’re praying for me. My mother passed a few months back, but my dad, and my siblings are all praying for me I’m sure. We get along fine, we just don’t talk about religion (or politics) when we get together because those are sensitive subjects to them. As I mentioned before, I wish I could tell them I believe again; just because I know how happy that would make them feel; and I would love to be able to do that for them because I love them dearly, but lying to them would be worse; and more of a betrayal. I will always know no matter how much good I do, how nice I am, it will never be enough; I think they would rather I were a wicked person, or even a criminal who still believed, than who I am now. They don’t act that way towards me, they try to pretend as if it doesn’t hurt them, but I know it does because I’ve been there.

Interesting post.

[Philip]

They’re praying for me. My mother passed a few months back, but my dad, and my siblings are all praying for me I’m sure. We get along fine, we just don’t talk about religion (or politics) when we get together because those are sensitive subjects to them. As I mentioned before, I wish I could tell them I believe again; just because I know how happy that would make them feel; and I would love to be able to do that for them because I love them dearly, but lying to them would be worse; and more of a betrayal. I will always know no matter how much good I do, how nice I am, it will never be enough; I think they would rather I were a wicked person, or even a criminal who still believed, than who I am now. They don’t act that way towards me, they try to pretend as if it doesn’t hurt them, but I know it does because I’ve been there.

Interesting post.

I'd says Ken's post is more revealing than merely interesting - as it shows that we need to be careful about what we assume and assert about people we don't even know, and not project our own past experiences with others onto them. Obviously, not all atheists' backgrounds, families and reasoning behind their unbelief are the same - even if there are some frequent, correlating commonalities and causes. Also, I think there are probably a lot of silent atheists out there - those who don't feel the need to draw attention to that aspect of themselves or maybe that wish to avoid the typical frictions and negativity being open about it can bring.

[Fliegender]

I'd says Ken's post is more revealing than merely interesting - as it shows that we need to be careful about what we assume and assert about people we don't even know, and not project our own past experiences with others onto them. Obviously, not all atheists' backgrounds, families and reasoning behind their unbelief are the same - even if there are some frequent, correlating commonalities and causes. Also, I think there are probably a lot of silent atheists out there - those who don't feel the need to draw attention to that aspect of themselves or maybe that wish to avoid the typical frictions and negativity being open about it can bring.

Yes, I agree that his post was revealing but...the first thought that came to mind when reading it was, “crocodile tears”.

I tend to be suspicious of what atheists say about themselves, especially those who say they used to be Christian. We’ve already established that “former Christian” is a nonsense term, so if a person believes that about himself, what other self-deceptions is this person cherishing?

As for silent atheists, yes, there are many and they are probably in the majority. To these avowed atheists, you can add all the nominal- and former-Christians who are as spiritually dead today as the day they were born. Religion without faith is an empty vessel.

You probably think I’m being too hard. It’s possible from your perspective.