What happens the moment after you die?

[Nessa]

Interested to see people's views on being with Christ just after death or 'soul sleep' til the resurrection of bodies etc

[Philip]

"Soul Sleep" is an unBiblical belief - but there are now in existence a temporary Heaven / Paradise and a temporary Hades / Hell, and the souls of the dead are both conscious and in one of those two places. There is also a future Heaven (the new heavens and new earth merger, in which Christians (only!) will live with Christ FOREVER.

Soul Sleep: https://www.gotquestions.org/soul-sleep.html

[Vishnu]

Interested to see people's views on being with Christ just after death or 'soul sleep' til the resurrection of bodies etc

The Bible does not give a definitive answer to this question, as there is no clear consensus among different Christian denominations. Some denominations, such as Calvinism, believe that the soul goes directly to be with Christ upon death. Other denominations, such as Methodism, believe that the soul “sleeps” until the resurrection of the body. Ultimately, the answer to this question is up to each individual and their interpretation of scripture.GB Whatsapp

[Philip]

Vishnu, welcome to the forum!

First of all, the Bible most certainly DOES reveal that belief in Soul Sleep to not be a Biblical one - did you even read the links? And I see you're not a Christian - uncertain why you would care about what Christians do or don't believe about this. Note that the tiniest few of Christian denominations hold this view, but the non-Christian cults do. BTW, Calvinism is not a denomination!

Jesus, before dying on the cross, turned to the saved thief (who confessed his sin and professed his faith to Jesus, asked to be remembered in His Kingdom) and said: "TODAY you will be with me in Paradise." And Christians believe Jesus to be fully GOD, whom also took on the forum of a man. So, I'd rethink what you may believe the Bible says on this.

[Fliegender]

The Bible does not give a definitive answer to this question, as there is no clear consensus among different Christian denominations. Some denominations, such as Calvinism, believe that the soul goes directly to be with Christ upon death. Other denominations, such as Methodism, believe that the soul “sleeps” until the resurrection of the body. Ultimately, the answer to this question is up to each individual and their interpretation of scripture.GB Whatsapp

As Philip has already said, the Bible certainly does give a clear answer about where a person goes after death. Soul sleep isn’t biblical, period. Those denominations that believe in soul sleep likely justify their belief by literalistic interpretations of certain Old Testament verses about death. The problem here is that these verses are superficially in contradiction with many other verses. Non Christians and other atheists point to these apparent inconsistencies as trophies proving contradictions in the Bible.

...but this isn’t the point I want to bring up. With your moniker of Vishnu I assume you believe in reincarnation; many people do, even nominal Christians. I’ve had such people tell me that the bible suggests/proves reincarnation. It doesn’t. This false belief is also due to a literalistic (as opposed to a litera) interpretation of Scripture.

The Bible is clear: you die once and then go to be with Christ or to the place reserved for the unsaved.

[Philip]

Flie, I suppose, in Canada, you come into contact with many more people from India that have reincarnation beliefs - least, many more than we do in the SE US (my wife daily works with many Indians internationally). But Christians - yeah - many calling themselves Christians have embraced many unBiblical beliefs. I wondering, why even claim Christian beliefs if you reject much of the Bible anyway? Course, so many are terribly Bible illiterate, knowing just enough about it to be dangerous to themselves and others.

[Fliegender]

... I wondering, why even claim Christian beliefs if you reject much of the Bible anyway? ...

People who reject the Bible while claiming to be Christian are likely doing it from a cultural perspective. Such people come from a predominantly Christian culture/family/background and therefore consider themselves “Christian”. In this sense they are like a Jew who says he’s an atheist.

I have a friend who is Muslim. He is Muslim but he never attends mosque, doesn’t venerate the Quran, has no intention of doing a pilgrimage to Mecca. He’s Muslim yet he owns a wine cellar to die for and has a taste for fine scotch. He even barbecues meat wrapped in bacon! He’s Muslim because he was born to Muslim parents and that’s where Islam stops for him.

It is possible to be a Jewish atheist or a beer-drinking/bacon-eating-Muslim because Jews and Muslims are born into a religion that doubles as an ethnic identity. So a Jew or a Muslim can reject the mumbo jumbo of the religion but keep & treasure the group identity. While this is true for Jews and Muslims, it isn’t for Christians. A baby born to Christian parents is not automatically Christian. The Bible is quite clear in that acceptance of Jesus as Lord is a conscious choice, not something you’re born into.

[Philip]

True, Flie - I guess I was thinking more of someone who knows at least some of the basics as to what is in the Bible, but still rejects much of even that. I've see people on this site like this - they pick and choose what of the Bible they want to believe. Of course, the cultural believers can come from all sorts of backgrounds. I know many long-time Catholics who attend Mass regularly, yet know next to nothing about the Bible or CC doctrine - and many of them, unsurprisingly, equate Catholicism with Christianity.

[Fliegender]

... I've see people on this site like this - they pick and choose what of the Bible they want to believe. Of course, the cultural believers can come from all sorts of backgrounds. I know many long-time Catholics who attend Mass regularly, yet know next to nothing about the Bible or CC doctrine - and many of them, unsurprisingly, equate Catholicism with Christianity.

Picking and choosing those parts of the Bible that are more palatable and ignoring the harder parts is probably quite...human. I’ve been guilty of that myself. Until the Erasable Bible is printed in pencil and accepted as Scripture, I will have to accept every verse printed in ink.

As for Roman Catholics, don’t be too hard on them. There are certainly some Catholics who are born-again believers. Most people who claim to be Christian are only nominally so. Christians-in-name-only are likely a significant majority in any denomination. Jesus’ analogy of the wide and narrow gates (Mt 7:13-14) seems to point to this conclusion. Also, Revelation’s story of the Seven Churches makes it clear that there are genuine believers even in the worst of these assemblies...

As for Bible literacy, I’m not sure how important that is. It’s certainly desirable but it has nothing to do with salvation. I’ve read stories where a Bible is smuggled into a country such as North Korea and then each page is torn out and given to believers there. No one person has more than a few pages to nourish their faith.

[Philip]

FlieG: As for Bible literacy, I’m not sure how important that is. It’s certainly desirable but it has nothing to do with salvation.

Absolutely - there are the absolutes related to salvation - believing in the death of the Biblical, Resurrected Jesus, and submitting to Him in desire to follow Him as our Lord. But the rest are not salvation issues, but more so ones of growth and rightful living, learning to love others, etc - God gave us all of that information for His good purposes and teachings. My in-laws are all Catholic - as my wife once was. My FIL was very unsophisticated in his Biblical knowledge, but I'm quite sure he died saved - he clearly loved God /Christ, and lived his life like it. Somehow, my wife got it, even before she was introduced to the evangelical world and began learning far more about the Bible. The rest of them - appear lost, never mentioning Jesus or talking about spiritual things, never reading (or owning?) the Bible - only referencing attending Mass. And I can see how Catholicism has damaged them. But, in their minds, if you point out problems with CC teachings, they see it as an attack upon Christianity itself (or Catholicism - which they equate with it.) - or as just the ramblings of a Protestant.

[Fliegender]

My in-laws are all Catholic - as my wife once was. My FIL was very unsophisticated in his Biblical knowledge, but I'm quite sure he died saved - he clearly loved God /Christ, and lived his life like it. Somehow, my wife got it, even before she was introduced to the evangelical world and began learning far more about the Bible. The rest of them - appear lost, never mentioning Jesus or talking about spiritual things, never reading (or owning?) the Bible - only referencing attending Mass. And I can see how Catholicism has damaged them. But, in their minds, if you point out problems with CC teachings, they see it as an attack upon Christianity itself (or Catholicism - which they equate with it.) - or as just the ramblings of a Protestant.

Well...the Roman Catholic Church probably suffers from I-was-here-first-ism. That would explain a lot of what you’ve noticed about that church and their followers. Now read this:

...All this is a most evident sign that we only receive our religion after our own fashion, by our own hands, and no otherwise than other religions are received. Either we are in the country where it is in practice, or we bear a reverence to its antiquity, or to the authority of the men who have maintained it, or we fear the menaces it fulminates against unbelievers, or are alluded by its promises... - Essays II, 12

That was written sometime around the year 1580 by Michel de Montaigne. Not much has changed since then: religion is still inherited from your family, is steeped in the culture and influences the laws of the country in which you are born. Religion ultimately has nothing to do with faith in God. Don’t believe me? Does a Hindu have faith in God? No. Does a Muslim have faith in God? No. And most “Christians” don’t have faith in God either. These people all have faith in their various religions. You could say that religions are like soap: they get you outwardly clean. So whether you trust in Tide or OxyClean or Gain to do your laundry, it’s all good. Any brand will get your jeans clean but only faith in Christ will really get you clean, so to speak. Once He cleans you, then any brand of “Christian soap” will do.

I wouldn’t worry too much about Catholics. There are enough bad apples in Protestantism: consider all the wackos who continue to trust in Trump...

[Stu]

FlieG: As for Bible literacy, I’m not sure how important that is. It’s certainly desirable but it has nothing to do with salvation.

Absolutely - there are the absolutes related to salvation - believing in the death of the Biblical, Resurrected Jesus, and submitting to Him in desire to follow Him as our Lord. But the rest are not salvation issues, but more so ones of growth and rightful living, learning to love others, etc - God gave us all of that information for His good purposes and teachings. My in-laws are all Catholic - as my wife once was. My FIL was very unsophisticated in his Biblical knowledge, but I'm quite sure he died saved - he clearly loved God /Christ, and lived his life like it. Somehow, my wife got it, even before she was introduced to the evangelical world and began learning far more about the Bible. The rest of them - appear lost, never mentioning Jesus or talking about spiritual things, never reading (or owning?) the Bible - only referencing attending Mass. And I can see how Catholicism has damaged them. But, in their minds, if you point out problems with CC teachings, they see it as an attack upon Christianity itself (or Catholicism - which they equate with it.) - or as just the ramblings of a Protestant.

Pope Francis says that a direct personal relationship with Jesus is dangerous, and you need the Roman Catholic Church to go to heaven.
A little ways into the video he gives the speech.

[Fliegender]

Pope Francis says that a direct personal relationship with Jesus is dangerous, and you need the Roman Catholic Church to go to heaven.
A little ways into the video he gives the speech.

That Pope Francis is disliked among his followers is nothing new. That Pope Francis and the RC Church have been pushing unbiblical teaching is nothing new either. You’re just engaging in mud slinging against that institution. If you wanted to be fair (but you don’t) you could engage in mud slinging against any denomination. Pick one, any one; you’ll certainly find some dirt on it, usually quite a lot. Organized religions & ministries are made up of easily corrupted officials leading a sinful flock. If you’re expecting a whiter-than-the-driven-snow church somewhere in the world then you’re self-deceived.

On a funny note, the latest asinine idea from some Protestants is that there’s a “demonic portal swirling like a cauldron” above the White House in Washington DC. This demonic porthole has been in place - and visible! - ever since President Biden took office.

Hahahahaha....

[Stu]

Pope Francis says that a direct personal relationship with Jesus is dangerous, and you need the Roman Catholic Church to go to heaven.
A little ways into the video he gives the speech.

That Pope Francis is disliked among his followers is nothing new. That Pope Francis and the RC Church have been pushing unbiblical teaching is nothing new either. You’re just engaging in mud slinging against that institution. If you wanted to be fair (but you don’t) you could engage in mud slinging against any denomination. Pick one, any one; you’ll certainly find some dirt on it, usually quite a lot. Organized religions & ministries are made up of easily corrupted officials leading a sinful flock. If you’re expecting a whiter-than-the-driven-snow church somewhere in the world then you’re self-deceived.

On a funny note, the latest asinine idea from some Protestants is that there’s a “demonic portal swirling like a cauldron” above the White House in Washington DC. This demonic porthole has been in place - and visible! - ever since President Biden took office.

Hahahahaha....

No. This is very very different.

This goes to the very CORE of Christianity that is being questioned - that WE are to have a PERSONAL relationship with Jesus.

We are to ask Him for forgiveness of our sins.

This is not some minor difference amongst denominations, this goes to the very essence of what makes Christianity what it is.

That I can't criticise Francis for something because other denominations also have failings is ridiculous. That is something that you should work out.
It's like saying you can't criticise Russia because the US also has faults, its just ridiculous.

[Philip]

The key to discerning between teachings of various Christian or "Christian" groups is, where do they derive their teachings - from the Bible or from man-made traditions tacked on to it - or teachings that outright contradict it? I absolutely HATE religion - because ALL of it, is built around either false deities and/or DOING stuff and works in an effort to please God - or some "god." Flie is right, there's plenty of hypocrisy amongst Christian groups - and many are simply cultural "Christians" - they aren't saved. But also, many people with various issues and false understandings still are, nonetheless, Christians! Why? Because God doesn't save people and make them instant theological or spiritual wizards. No! He saves them WHERE they are, in the midst of all of their stuff and begins to work on their heart and understandings. People are saved or not ONLY when they have submitted themselves to Christ in repentance and commitment to follow and do their best to obey Him. So, on some level, ALL true Christians will have various hypocritical and sinful things going on in their words and actions - because, though saved, they are still mortal and thus yet SINNERS! But, positionally, saved people are forgiven of ALL of their sins - past, present, future, as God views us as adopted sons and sees us not as we are in our flesh, but as we will one-day be when our flesh is no more. In fact, it's a common false belief about Christianity, that it teaches we are morally superior to everyone else - it does not and we are NOT! I've known many unsaved people who appear to conduct themselves in a far more moral manner than others that I know are Christians, but that have many messed up issues or beliefs. A brief scan of the characters God called His and used across Scripture shows those who are His, on this earth, can be really screwed up at times.

And Stu is correct, that just because there are issues and hypocrisy to be found amongst Christians, it is also VERY legitimate to ACCURATELY criticize cults, false religious garbage, and immorality. If we had to wait until we were morally perfect to correctly criticize, then NO one could. But God uses us right in our mess - if we are His and saved. This can morph into a silly debate - as to whom has the moral high-ground! And we also have to be very careful about demonizing lost people who God desires come to Him - otherwise, we become the ultimate hypocrites. And yet, there are legitimate criticisms - especially when aimed in truth at worldly lies and the unsaved who need to understand the truth - about both God and immorality.