RTB: Serious Problems with Evolution

[Philip]

Paul, welcome to the forum!

You'll find a range of beliefs on Darwinian / Neo-Darwinian evolution here. Old earth creationists like myself typically believe ALL life required a Creator God as the originator of all things. But the reality is, arguments over evolution aren't the most important questions that should be discussed - as ANY life, even the most simple forms, required much preparation and many necessary and highly complex things to exist WAY before the universe and earth could even have existed or been capable of supporting life. And those things would have first come into existence over 10 billion years before even very simple life forms would have existed to evolve. So, don't get sucked into arguments about evolution, because there is FAR more that an unbelieving atheist must explain before arguing about evolution. Why does ANYTHING exist at all? Where did the designs and complex components and astonishing precision of the universe's many incredible mechanisms come from? Etc. Don't let the materialist dodge the far more important questions - because everything they believe requires an explanation of prior, far older things!

BTW, Ken Ham is not a good source of argument.

[spiceagent11]

That's the easy response, Audie! Try instead, what is far more difficult, to address the specific issues the links bring up - particularly the astronomical mathematical improbabilities - not based upon speculation, but upon KNOWN science, innumerable studies, and observable way processes have always consistently worked. ESPECIALLY key to address for anyone who believes that a non-intelligence and merely random, eternally existing things produced even the CONDITIONS that could make evolution possible - much less the actualities and processes.

[1over137]

Hi spiceagent11,

Welcome to the board.
We have a section for introducing oneself viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5
Feel free to write a bit about you

[cookieezz63]

I feel sorry, for all these problems that RTB or AiG or other anti-evolution institutes keep finding, they never challenge or submit it against ToE as evidence of why it is wrong. Just keeps giving Christians more reasons not to look into ToE. A couple of years back I think I made that evolution thread with so many peer reviewed papers and studies, and guess what? no one actually read the papers, just kept mentioning links of why evolution has problems.

[Philip]

Welcome to the forum, Cookieezz!

If you search the forum, you will find a range of views about Creation - ones that take either the YEC (Young Earth), OEC (Old Earth), or TE (Theistic Evolution) views - as well as related / hybrid ones. You will find NO viewpoints about this that haven't been rigorously (and redundantly) debated on this forum. There are those here who believe mankind all came from Adam, those that believe that Adam and Eve were created long after greater mankind was, and those that believe the story of the garden either true or simply allegorical (significant problems with the allegorical view). And, unfortunately, Christians have long been brutally crashing into each other over such issues - which to me, is a sideshow that is damaging to Christianity. Because what TRULY matters is that God exists, that He took the form of an infant, came here to teach, enlighten and die for us, that He was resurrected and will come again. As well, in what ways does Jesus and God's Holy Spirit in us change us? And what does God's gift to mankind, through Jesus (also FULLY God / fully man) and resurrection mean for those who embrace it and are in a committed relationship with Him? The rest, while fascinating and fun, sometimes contentious, is mostly just an interesting debate that should always remain civil.

There are problems with various views, as they conflict with Scripture - which is God-given. So, whenever a view brings us a conflict with Scripture, we have either misunderstood / misinterpreted the Scripture OR our views of the data and conclusions are problematic. As well, science brings us many understandings of God's World - things the ancients didn't know. But science is a moving / ongoing process of discovery - and when a held scientific view conflicts with Scripture, then we have the same issue - do we correctly understand the Scripture or are the scientific findings correct, comprehensive, and precisely understood?

Again, welcome!

[cookieezz63]

My understanding of mutations is that they are the result of mess-up in the genetic code - link. There's also a back-up /repair mechanism that catches most of those hitches that occur. But once in a while a mistake gets through and a person ends up with a problem. A 'change' has taken place. But it also takes care of itself in the next generation or two.
hellodear.in

tea tv apk

[Philip]

Cookieezz, and my understanding is that BENEFICIAL mutations are very rare, as mutations are usually unhealthy or problematic.

[abelcainsbrother]

If you think I was good at debunking evolution in the past I'm am even better at it than before. First off Evolution is not really even a scientific hypothesis. Because not one scientist or Biologist has ever been able to demonstrate Darwin's or any hypothesis of evolution. This means the scientific method was totally ignored for the sake of evolution. Scientists are supposed to follow the scientific method and you must falsify the hypothesis when you can't demonstrate it. And to become a scientific theory it must be repeatably demonstratable.

And so because scientists ignored the scientfic method they were supposed to follow there is absolutely no way to gather data on the stages life goes through if it evolves.None of their evidence can do this and so they came up with a way to keep evolution going based on this belief it is true and trick themselves and us about evolution.Instead of demonstrating evolution they instead have just demonstrated the normal variablity of populations which was already common knowledge from thousands of years of plant and animal breeding.But they use this evidence and assume everything else about evolution is true and they use evolution imagination and make up evolution myths like natural selection,speciation,micro and macro-evolution,mutations,genetic drift,etc and make up myths about how life evolves based on these myths. Meanwhile because they ignored the scientific method as explained above they have only proven and demonstrated that these things causes the variability of populations,which is proving life cannot and does not evolve like Darwin imagined and made a case for.We know from thousands of years of plant and animal breeding that variation of populations is limited but yet today it is used as proof life evolves.It is stating the obvious but not evolution.

According to Oxford's Dictionary of Biology "Present day species evolved from simpler ancestral types by the process of natural selection acting on the variability of populations." Read it again a few times. So you see this is not something I just made up about variation of populations but as you can see it cannot be used for evidence for evolution and yet it is.It is shocking when you understand fully what I'm saying because you should not even accept micro-evolution like many creationists do because they ignored the scientific method and so there is no way to truly study the stages life goes through if it evolved and it is just an evolution myth. So keep this in mind the next time you claim you accept micro-evolution but not macro-evolution. Both are myths that cannot be known.

Also I can throw in the Gap Theory and not only refute and debunk evolution but I can offer a much more believable theory than evolution too. And over time I've learrned how to do it both with and without the bible.Now I want to honor the truth of God's word and the Gap Theory came from deep bible study but I can do it without even using the bible if I want to. I can use the fossil record to prove the Gap Theory is true and make the case for two totally different worlds and not one so that life can evolve or I can just call it "the two different worlds Theory" and not even bring the bible into it and as we go through the fossil record and compare the kinds of life we see in the fossil record and compare it to the kinds of life we have in this world this theory is much more believable than one world for evolution. And if you did it with the bible it would be strong evidence for the bible and the truth of God's word and it could change the way we look at the earth's history unlike with YEC,Day Age or Theistic Evolution that Christians often use trying to win over the lost.Think two different worlds instead of just one world or "a Lost world" we know nothing about because of Evolution.

Bone Digger. For You.
https://youtu.be/OgsN67dqqiA

[meetskorun]

I feel sorry, for all these problems that RTB or AiG or other anti-evolution institutes keep finding, they never challenge or submit it against ToE as evidence of why it is wrong. Just keeps giving Christians more reasons not to look into ToE. A couple of years back I think I made that evolution thread with so many peer reviewed papers and studies, and guess what? no one actually read the papers, just kept mentioning links of why evolution has problems.

[Philip]

Meetskorun, welcome to the forum!

Of course, many Christians here, over the years, have also argued for theistic evolution. And many distinguish between an evolution that is Godless and one that is guided, as well as differences between macroevolution and microevolution. I see you are not a Christian - are you at least a theist? What is your spiritual viewpoint?

For me, I see evolution arguments as a sideshow over what really needs to be explained. And that is, how did so many exceptionally complex and engineered building block designs and functionalities instantly appear at the Big Bang's beginning and began functioning with astonishing precision. Where did these things come from? The conditions for life far precede the earth's appearance (from the universe's perspective), including the fine-tuning of the universe leading up to the earth and earth life is astounding. All of this, even before the earth and its first simple life forms appeared. So, I see arguments about evolution - at least as explanation for how what materially came into existence and how these many things acquired their designs and cross functionalities, with such incredible specificity and fine-tuning - explanations for creation and positioning of things that preceded life are what interest me. How did they come into existence? What started the Big Bang? How did first things acquire their designs and functionalities - because what came about at the Big Bang's beginning cannot be explained by evolution! Evolution is a process involving designed material things with exceptionally narrow and immensely complex functionalities. But before the Big Bang began, there was no material ANYTHING - and that's where the far-bigger questions lie!

[abelcainsbrother]

I feel sorry, for all these problems that RTB or AiG or other anti-evolution institutes keep finding, they never challenge or submit it against ToE as evidence of why it is wrong. Just keeps giving Christians more reasons not to look into ToE. A couple of years back I think I made that evolution thread with so many peer reviewed papers and studies, and guess what? no one actually read the papers, just kept mentioning links of why evolution has problems.

Even if you submiited it against evolution scientists will just circle the wagons to protect evolution like they have all of these years.Peer review is a joke.Evolution must be defeated and only the Gap theory can do it.Young earth creationism cannot defeat evolution because it is just as wrong as evolution is claiming "all things have gone on continually since the beginning of the creation" 2nd Peter 3:4.We have a lost world that was a totally different kind of world than this world nobody knows about because of evolution.It is time we as Christians teach the truth about what the fossil record really proves because it is not evidence for evolution or Noah's flood but two different worlds and a gap between them,instead.