God used two powerful dreams to draw and reach this agnostic scientist!

[Philip]

See this biochemist and former agnostic, from a family of atheists, describe two incredible dreams God sent him and used to draw him towards eventual belief and faith in Jesus. What an amazing story by a man who previously only ever had faith in his scientific understandings!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBHd224fI98

[1over137]

Aaa, this is a part of a larger video. Whole interview was posted here: viewtopic.php?p=253605#p253605

Anyway, why God uses dreams? Why not using something while we are awake?

[chad121]

Technically, an atheist is someone who doesn't believe in a god, while an agnostic is someone who doesn't believe it's possible to know for sure that a god exists. It's possible to be both—an agnostic atheist doesn't believe but also doesn't think we can ever know whether a god exists.

[Fliegender]

Technically, an atheist is someone who doesn't believe in a god, while an agnostic is someone who doesn't believe it's possible to know for sure that a god exists. It's possible to be both—an agnostic atheist doesn't believe but also doesn't think we can ever know whether a god exists.

You’re right but you’re also splitting hairs. Terms such as “agnostic atheist”, “gnostic atheist”, ”agnostic theist”, “gnostic theist”, strong- and weak-atheist et cetera ad nauseum are mostly irrelevant in a general discussion about the subject. These terms serve mostly to confuse or obfuscate. If you’re agnostic, you are by definition atheist.

Since this is a Christian site, a further reduction in confusion is possible: you either believe in the God of the Bible or you don’t. So a Muslim, a Hindu, “strong gnostic atheist” and an “weak-agnostic” are all in the same boat from a salvific point of view.

(They’re all toast!)

[Philip]

Chad121 wrote: "Technically, an atheist is someone who doesn't believe in a god" (which is an accurate definition.

Chad added: "While an agnostic is someone who doesn't believe it's possible to know for sure that a god exists"

And Flie is correct that the difference doesn't much matter - per salvation in Christ - as both the atheist and the agnostic do not believe in God - regardless that the agnostic further asserts it's impossible to know. But I don't think either the atheist or the agnostic NEVER knew God exists. Because Romans 1 would seem to rule this out, as the Apostle Paul writes of the "unrighteousness of men, who by THEIR unrighteousness suppress the truth."

The Apostle Paul, speaking of unbelievers stretching back to the ancient past, writes in Romans 1:19 "For what can be known about God is PLAIN to them, because God has SHOWN IT TO THEM. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, HAVE BEEN CLEARLY PERCEIVED, EVER SINCE THE CREATION OF THE WORLD, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For ALTHOUGH they KNEW God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but THEY BECAME FUTILE IN THEIR THINKING, and THEIR FOOLISH HEARTS WERE DARKENED. 22 Claiming to be wise, THEY BECAME FOOLS, 23 and EXCHANGED the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things."

Jeremiah 17:9 states that "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick." And what I think this tells us is that a human being can easily convince himself of most any untruth, if so self-motivated to accept it. One can tell themself effective lies, long enough, so that their lies eventually become their new truth - and to the point that they no longer realize the truth they once knew. And if a person doesn't want to know or follow God, an easy way to normalize that as their truth is to begin to convince themselves He doesn't even exist - even though they once had such a basic awareness. Again, the Apostle Paul says that "what can be known about God is PLAIN to them, because God has SHOWN it to them." Which leads me to believe NO one was originally an atheist or agnostic. Now, just because one once had an awareness of God and His existence - perhaps as a youth - does not mean they were ever committed to Him or desired a relationship with Him.

Now, IF one truly wants to know the truth about God and His existence, I would challenge them to ASK Him to reveal Himself to them, as it's just that simple! And to the one who SINCERELY and HONESTLY asks Him (even though skeptical of what perhaps seems an intellectually ridiculous quest), God WILL reveal Himself to them. But I emphasize that one must approach God sincerely, as in truly wanting to know the answer - and not just hoping for no answer or to learn ONLY what they already truly want to confirm (the lie they already accept!). One cannot expect to find what they earnestly and truly don't want to find or learn, as God honors the sincere seeker. And how God answers such seekers happens in often differing and surprising ways. But make no mistake, HOWEVER He does it, God WILL reveal Himself to anyone who truly wants to know the truth about Him. And why wouldn't a person want to know the truth of the matter about God's existence? UNLESS, their pride and ego are too great to seek the answer to an obvious question posed across the entire history of mankind? And as the Bible asserts that one's response to God has eternal consequences - well, wouldn't you want to know what you need to about something so critical as THAT?!!!

[Fliegender]

Now, IF one truly wants to know the truth about God and His existence, I would challenge them to ASK Him to reveal Himself to them, as it's just that simple! And to the one who SINCERELY and HONESTLY asks Him (even though skeptical of what perhaps seems an intellectually ridiculous quest), God WILL reveal Himself to them. But I emphasize that one must approach God sincerely, as in truly wanting to know the answer …

As a former atheist myself, I can assure you that no self-respecting atheist would ever ask God to reveal himself. Never! Never, ever. That would be like an atheist asking Santa Claus to reveal himself. Or the Tooth Fairy. Atheist forums on the internet lump belief in God in the same league as belief in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy: these 3 characters console and reward young children and simple adults.

(I’m barely exaggerating!)

What is far more effective in prompting an atheist to look beyond his hatred of the idea of God is a grave personal tragedy, a life crisis, a near death experience or something like that. So, while it’s polite to recommend Lee Stroebel’s books to atheists, his works largely preach to the converted...

Want to get an atheist to ask God to reveal himself? ...I put my money on personal tragedy: financial ruin, repeated divorces or ending up in jail are more effective. And YouTube is full of atheists who have gone through NDEs and have come back believers.

Personal tragedy: that’s where I’d put my money...

[Philip]

FlieG: Want to get an atheist to ask God to reveal himself? ...I put my money on personal tragedy: financial ruin, repeated divorces or ending up in jail are more effective.

Of COURSE, an atheist must FIRST be motivated to want to ask God about His existence - and it is precisely such circumstances as you mention above that can and often DOES open the door of desperation and give them the first real sense of their need. Which is why I want to encourage people encountering such things to know there IS a way to know there is hope - as it may never have occurred to them that there IS a way to find God exists and cares for them. He has awakened MANY atheists from their delusions as well as their despair! Don't ever be so cynical as to think that's not the case! Hopelessness can and does drive many to the Lord! I had a close business associate who was an atheist - same thing, his world was in tatters - his law practice, his finances, and depression and gloom closed in on him while he was isolated and remote from his family. And his wife, a new Christian (whom he cynically suggested "those Christians just want something from you!"), suggested to Him to approach God, in much the way I suggested (telling him, "God WANTS you to ask Him for help!"). Normally, a very cocky and prideful person, only because of his emotional desperation did he even consider her advice. And he said to God - "if you are there, and real and capable - let me know, but DON'T BE SUBTLE or I'll conclude you either don't exist or are irrelevant!" And God used some stunning circumstances soon afterward that drew him to faith.

Also, while I was never an atheist - in fact, probably believed from a young age - there was, however, a point in my late teens that my peer influences brought me to serious doubts and flirtations with atheism - as I began to question all I had absorbed per my parent's Christian beliefs. Especially when people are very young, they are more open to wanting to know the truth - especially, as you note, during scary and troubling times, personal crisis. And that is what spurred me to want to truly know the truth about God. For a brief window, I thought that if God didn't exist, then I was free to live however I wanted to - I didn't know of so many powerful evidences, etc. and I had a skewed, legalistic and impersonal view of Him. I had no Christian friends. I was running with a fast crowd of fellow stoners. And I quickly realized that kind of freedom was no freedom whatsoever - it was bleak, dark and hopeless - at 18, I was dangerously burned out! And once God re-ignited my nearly dead ember of faith, totally unsought, btw, it was if my entire world had changed. It gave me the strength to radically change - and I abandoned the relationships of toxic people who were unbelievers dragging me down with terrible influences.

Atheists are also human beings, with fears, challenges, great trauma. And God put within EVERY human a need for Him that only He can meet. But many atheists must reach the end of their rope of despair first - as clearly, they have little real motivation to seek God if they think their atheism is working just fine and the only boss they have to contend with is the one they see in the mirror every morning.

Flie - what brought you to belief and faith?

[Fliegender]

FlieG: Want to get an atheist to ask God to reveal himself? ...I put my money on personal tragedy: financial ruin, repeated divorces or ending up in jail are more effective.

Of COURSE, an atheist must FIRST be motivated to want to ask God about His existence - and it is precisely such circumstances as you mention above that can and often DOES open the door of desperation and give them the first real sense of their need...

Flie - what brought you to belief and faith?

What brought me to faith from atheism was a perfect trifecta of financial ruin, impending divorce and looking around and understanding that I had hurt many people for personal gain. Ultimately, I was a failure.

I think psychological ruin of some sort really is the best path to prompting an atheist to call on God. I sincerely doubt that many can come to the conclusion that God exists through diligent study as Lee Stroebel has.

[Philip]

Flie: What brought me to faith from atheism was a perfect trifecta of financial ruin, impending divorce and looking around and understanding that I had hurt many people for personal gain. Ultimately, I was a failure.

That's a brutal space to occupy - especially, when one seems trapped in such a situation and they can't change their past actions or present circumstances. But your story has me curious about how you got from their to faith - I can easily see the depth of your need and hurt, but from there, how did you come to faith? What was the spark? What was the path of understanding?

Flie: I think psychological ruin of some sort really is the best path to prompting an atheist to call on God. I sincerely doubt that many can come to the conclusion that God exists through diligent study as Lee Stroebel has.

I think it simply means that atheists are like any other human beings, in that, they are each uniquely wired and their backgrounds are often very different. Some aren't anti-Christian or hostile, are relatively tolerant of the faith of others - it's just that they don't believe, for whatever reasons. Had a roommate like that - great guy, seemingly more moral than many Christians sometimes are. In fact, only if the subject came up would one have known he was an atheist.

[Fliegender]

... how did you come to faith? What was the spark? What was the path of understanding?

I didn’t “come to the faith” as if it were a quest I entered upon. I didn’t diligently study the Bible or think of God and come to the conclusion that He must exist. None of that baloney. I remember going to bed and saying something to the effect “God if you’re really there, then take control of my life because all I can do is make a mess of things...” then I went on to list my failures and fell asleep. The next morning I awoke feeling free, joyous, happy and I knew God existed. So I didn’t “come to the faith”, faith was just planted in me. Faith in God was certainly nothing I would have wanted the night before.

I think it simply means that atheists are like any other human beings, in that, they are each uniquely wired and their backgrounds are often very different. Some aren't anti-Christian or hostile, are relatively tolerant of the faith of others - it's just that they don't believe, for whatever reasons. Had a roommate like that - great guy, seemingly more moral than many Christians sometimes are. In fact, only if the subject came up would one have known he was an atheist.

Yes, most atheists are okay. Nice people for the most part. That isn’t the point here. The title of this thread is God used two powerful dreams to draw and reach this agnostic scientist! I infer from that title that this thread is about ways God draws people to Himself. Dreams and NDEs are certainly spectacular but I’ve never personally met atheists who became believers through these experiences. They must be “the tip of the iceberg” so to speak. Such stories are over represented on platforms such as YouTube. I suspect most atheist-to-believer conversions are much less spectacular, more mundane.

[Philip]

Flie: I didn’t “come to the faith” as if it were a quest I entered upon. I didn’t diligently study the Bible or think of God and come to the conclusion that He must exist. None of that baloney. I remember going to bed and saying something to the effect “God if you’re really there, then take control of my life because all I can do is make a mess of things...” then I went on to list my failures and fell asleep. The next morning I awoke feeling free, joyous, happy and I knew God existed. So I didn’t “come to the faith”, faith was just planted in me. Faith in God was certainly nothing I would have wanted the night before.

Flie, one should never consider HOW a person seeks the truth about God as "baloney" - as how one is approached by Him and what precisely He uses to initially draw them have great variations - and I've heard many differing accounts. And your answer suggests to me that you DID enter upon a quest for God - yet with a very simple and direct request - certainly / apparently unexpectantly made. In fact, I wouldn't consider it terribly different from my suggestion that a person pose a simple question to God - except that you seem to have gone even further / and BOILDER, likely without having realized it. Because you even stretched your request to go beyond for God to merely reveal His existence, to saying, "Take control of my life." That's a scary step many Christians are afraid to pray for. You were also honest with Him about your own efforts at your old approach to life as well as it's messy results. And unlike the stories of many others, you had an overnight sense of change and powerful awareness of HIm - which many don't so quickly receive (and yet, many DO!). You must have been incredibly shocked - just as I was, to suddenly have a strong sense of Him.

But I agree, few approach and find God through a methodical, intellectual approach as did Lee Strobels. But many elements of His interest level and curiosity can come later, while the most important (a certainty and awareness) can come first and rather quickly - which is kind of what happened to me when my childhood faith suddenly / instantly became something far greater and more real to me (in one, wonderful afternoon). Only later did powerful evidences and my understandings of them begin to develop. In fact, I never requested anything, but was open to the truth of the matter. We're all different, and it's why God approaches us all differently. The Apostle Paul used VERY differing approaches of evangelism, depending upon His audience. Some he was very direct with and full of warnings to repent. But with the philosophers and intellectuals at Mars Hill, he took a very philosophical approach, beginning with what they already DID know, and how they were wired and tended to think while evaluating evidences.

In fact, I don't think one's evangelical approach matters nearly so much as the fact that God must open our eyes first and that He is the one Who draws us, no matter the circumstances and context He works in. The second paragraph here, well describes this mystery of God's drawing (https://www.gotquestions.org/drawn-salvation.html). Of course, His drawing is effective ONLY upon those who, at some point, become so-willing to listen / be drawn - as His drawing and wooing (even if merely hearing the Gospel preached) can be resisted. And God's drawing will never be a FORCING of Himself upon us. God respects our free will So, His drawing WILL, at some point, always be effective upon the person whose heart and mind won't permanently resist Him!

[Fliegender]

Hmmmm...methodical searching through the Bible for clues to God’s existence rarely works to draw atheists to faith. Lee Stroebel is an exception. Hard- or “gnostic atheists” pour over the Bible looking for errors, inconsistencies and contradictions and they manage to find many apparent problems. An atheist doing this kind of “study” doesn’t get anywhere and that’s why I call this “baloney”. Can it work for a minority? Maybe, but I doubt it. Stroebel likely had other problems going on besides his wife having become a Christian and disappearing to church for several hours every week.

As for Paul teaching the philosophers, the story in Acts 17 is clear: these people were believers in pagan deities. For such people, it’s easier to accept the existence of a “higher god” and that’s likely what they understood Paul to be promoting. It’s not surprising that a few did convert. That’s nice but it’s not what this thread is about.

I’m still betting on serious personal tragedy as the most effective catalyst in bringing atheists to faith. Near Death Experiences, spiritually charged dreams and honest Bible study may bring a tiny minority of atheists to the faith, that’s all. I’ve never met such people although they are over represented on YouTube. Their stories are just more compelling than run-of-the-mill stories such as mine.