Here's what they're destroying: A HUMAN BEING!

[Philip]

After Roe vs. Wade and legal abortions began in 1973, the number of U.S. abortions has ranged between about 1 million and as many as 1.5 million abortions per year. But that's just in the U.S. In a time when experts say that birth control pills, when used correctly, can prevent pregnancy with about 91 to 99 percent effectiveness - people are killing their unborn children in an unimaginable and unnecessary, ongoing holocaust.

Here is a really detailed look at what of God's images (developing children) look like at each stage of development, showing the astonishing, week-by-week changes in the womb. Go to 1:57 of this video - to weeks 11 and 12 to see what is already a very well-developed baby - this, when the horror of the average U.S. abortion takes place by 13 weeks. The is not a blob of tissue, but a living human being people are killing!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-lQOooYAs8

And here is an actual video of an unborn child from an ultrasound: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WH9ZJu4wRUE

As Christians, we need to do all we can to prevent this tragedy, AND to come alongside young women who find themselves in unplanned pregnancies!

[Fliegender]

While I believe abortion to be morally wrong from a biblical perspective, I think it should be freely available to those women who want to go through with the procedure for whatever reason. As far as I’m concerned, abortion is a private matter for a woman to deal with on her own...or with others if she so chooses. The state has no business in this matter.

[Stu]

While I believe abortion to be morally wrong from a biblical perspective, I think it should be freely available to those women who want to go through with the procedure for whatever reason. As far as I’m concerned, abortion is a private matter for a woman to deal with on her own...or with others if she so chooses. The state has no business in this matter.

How about God? He has a say in this. And He says no.
Abortion is part of the reason why America is under judgement. Innocent blood being spilled and bought and sold.

[Fliegender]

While I believe abortion to be morally wrong from a biblical perspective, I think it should be freely available to those women who want to go through with the procedure for whatever reason. As far as I’m concerned, abortion is a private matter for a woman to deal with on her own...or with others if she so chooses. The state has no business in this matter.

How about God? He has a say in this. And He says no.
Abortion is part of the reason why America is under judgement. Innocent blood being spilled and bought and sold.

What about God? God is largely out of the political world. Abortion rights are in the secular domain. I wouldn’t want to live in a theocracy administered by man. Those theocracies that still exist on earth (such as Afghanistan, Iran and Saudi Arabia etc.) are the most repressive states when it comes to human rights.

As for the souls of aborted babies, it’s fairly clear that they go to be with God. For the women involved, there’s an opportunity for pardon and redemption. That takes care of the moral aspect of this question.

[Stu]

While I believe abortion to be morally wrong from a biblical perspective, I think it should be freely available to those women who want to go through with the procedure for whatever reason. As far as I’m concerned, abortion is a private matter for a woman to deal with on her own...or with others if she so chooses. The state has no business in this matter.

How about God? He has a say in this. And He says no.
Abortion is part of the reason why America is under judgement. Innocent blood being spilled and bought and sold.

What about God? God is largely out of the political world. Abortion rights are in the secular domain. I wouldn’t want to live in a theocracy administered by man. Those theocracies that still exist on earth (such as Afghanistan, Iran and Saudi Arabia etc.) are the most repressive states when it comes to human rights.

As for the souls of aborted babies, it’s fairly clear that they go to be with God. For the women involved, there’s an opportunity for pardon and redemption. That takes care of the moral aspect of this question.

What the.... so you're fine with murder, as long as the person goes to heaven?!!

If the women knows that it is wrong and still does it, and then repents, is she truly sorry? What if she does it again.
I know stealing is wrong, but I will rob a bank once to get some money, then I will repent.

You admit the baby is a living being, apart from the mother (the mother just carries the baby) as it has different DNA from the mother, yet you still think it ok that you decide that it is ok to kill them? What about the right to life? Who says you get to decide who lives or dies.

And God has everything to do with abortion - He says it is wrong. But I guess if people sleep around (also against God's law) and just happen to get pregnant, rather murder the baby than give them up for adoption, no matter what God says.

People talk about love and that God is all about love. Yes 100%.
But He also judges sin. He judges murder. It's not abortion. It's murder. As a Christian you should know that, because you admit their soul will go to heaven.

The blood of innocents in America is overflowing, millions of babies killed. God will judge that.

[Fliegender]

You’re being melodramatic, Stu.

There’s a distinction to be made between the secular and the sacred. I don’t want to live in a country where the sacred is monitored and enforced by secular politicians. That situation existed in “Christian” Europe during medieval times and it was used by those in power to abuse, enslave, murder and start numerous wars. The same situation exists today in Muslim theocracies where if you don’t follow the precepts of the faith, you’re in big trouble. Like it or not, theocracies are hellish. Hellish countries where I wouldn’t want to live. I like my freedom.

[Stu]

You’re being melodramatic, Stu.

There’s a distinction to be made between the secular and the sacred. I don’t want to live in a country where the sacred is monitored and enforced by secular politicians. That situation existed in “Christian” Europe during medieval times and it was used by those in power to abuse, enslave, murder and start numerous wars. The same situation exists today in Muslim theocracies where if you don’t follow the precepts of the faith, you’re in big trouble. Like it or not, theocracies are hellish. Hellish countries where I wouldn’t want to live. I like my freedom.

You just admitted that murdering the baby will send them to heaven, so therefore it is ok to do so.
I must say that is quite possibly one of the more cruel and shocking things I have ever heard a real Christian say. You know that they cut the vocal chords of the baby so they can't scream before killing them.

You seem more worried about politics than the lives of millions of little babies.

You like your freedom = ignore what God says, I'll do it my way. Dangerous ground.

Sorry, but any Christian that is pro abortion needs a long hard look in the mirror, and has more than likely been living too long in our self-loving, secular, all-about-me society in which whatever "feels" right is then ok, which includes abortion, cutting off the genitalia of little kids, drugs, stealing, etc.

Sorry but if you feel you have the right to kill an unborn baby, you are not of the same Christianity that I belong to. No offense but yours is a watered down version where you mix in modern societies feelings and rights with God's law.
Sorry, but we don't call the shots, God does, full stop. We either obey His laws or we are in sin. You can't have one foot in modern secular society and another in Christianity, that is being luke warm.

Leave your feelings at home. God says you shall not murder. End of story.

[Fliegender]

Sorry, but any Christian that is pro abortion needs a long hard look in the mirror, and has more than likely been living too long in our self-loving, secular, all-about-me society in which whatever "feels" right is then ok, which includes abortion, cutting off the genitalia of little kids, drugs, stealing, etc.

Sorry but if you feel you have the right to kill an unborn baby, you are not of the same Christianity that I belong to. No offense but yours is a watered down version where you mix in modern societies feelings and rights with God's law.
Sorry, but we don't call the shots, God does, full stop. We either obey His laws or we are in sin. You can't have one foot in modern secular society and another in Christianity, that is being luke warm.

Leave your feelings at home. God says you shall not murder. End of story.

I don’t think you have to worry about born again Christians getting abortions. I’m sure it happens but it’s probably quite rare. For any Christian woman who goes through an abortion for whatever reason, this sin is already forgiven. Is it a serious sin? Yes but it’s already forgiven. For unbelievers, forgiveness of this sin and all others is available free for the asking from God. Since you’re Christian, you already know this.

For the majority of people living in Western nations, practices such abortion, gay marriage and voluntary euthanasia of the terminally ill are acceptable in the secular realm. Are these sin? Yes. A tiny minority of citizens in Western nations are born again Christians; we can follow our conscience on moral matters. Faith in God is a personal matter; it’s not one that I would want to be regulated by the State.

[Philip]

FlieG wrote: The state has no business in this matter.

Our core values influence our political views - even though our political choices are often terrible, imperfect, and cannot match up with God's teachings. However, we all support various things that are politically driven and put into laws because this is often our only opportunity to help create boundaries for society that have consequences. Most of us support laws against theft, assault, rape, kidnapping, murder - yes, these things are all also prohibited in Scripture. So, are we to suppose that whenever we support certain things legally - that as Christians we shouldn't do so simply because it's our way of forcing our spiritual beliefs upon society? In a free society in which people have a say and a vote upon matters of the state, this means we ALL have such rights and freedoms.

And my view is that ANY law that helps prevent most (I would otherwise say NO abortions, for you can't help what people might do themselves) children from being slaughtered in the womb is a thing we should all hope and pray would be implemented. And if my vote helps prevent this horror - well, I'm either against it or for it. Collectively, votes for keeping abortion on demand legal are immoral, as such votes are helping further the holocaust of the wombs! And just because you'll never stop women from finding another method - or clinic in another jurisdiction to kill their unborn children, doesn't mean it's not right to stand for laws that protect the unborn. As God loves every unborn child, and ANY law that helps protect such children is a good one! Are we to feel more guilty about "forcing our Christian values" by our vote that prevented an abortion, or that by voting to protect abortion on demand that we help enable millions to keep feeding the abortionists' industry?

[Philip]

Abortion is part of the reason why America is under judgement. Innocent blood being spilled and bought and sold.

America is but one country of most in the world that have massive numbers of abortions. Stu, not that, per 1,000 women aborting children, S. Africa's rate of killing is 1/3 higher than the U.S. - so, the WORLD of nations is under God's judgment for this slaughter. China annually has 17.7 million and India 16. 6 million abortions!

See the rates by country: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... statistics

[Stu]

Sorry, but any Christian that is pro abortion needs a long hard look in the mirror, and has more than likely been living too long in our self-loving, secular, all-about-me society in which whatever "feels" right is then ok, which includes abortion, cutting off the genitalia of little kids, drugs, stealing, etc.

Sorry but if you feel you have the right to kill an unborn baby, you are not of the same Christianity that I belong to. No offense but yours is a watered down version where you mix in modern societies feelings and rights with God's law.
Sorry, but we don't call the shots, God does, full stop. We either obey His laws or we are in sin. You can't have one foot in modern secular society and another in Christianity, that is being luke warm.

Leave your feelings at home. God says you shall not murder. End of story.

I don’t think you have to worry about born again Christians getting abortions. I’m sure it happens but it’s probably quite rare. For any Christian woman who goes through an abortion for whatever reason, this sin is already forgiven. Is it a serious sin? Yes but it’s already forgiven. For unbelievers, forgiveness of this sin and all others is available free for the asking from God. Since you’re Christian, you already know this.

For the majority of people living in Western nations, practices such abortion, gay marriage and voluntary euthanasia of the terminally ill are acceptable in the secular realm. Are these sin? Yes. A tiny minority of citizens in Western nations are born again Christians; we can follow our conscience on moral matters. Faith in God is a personal matter; it’s not one that I would want to be regulated by the State.

No, once saved always saved is false.

You cannot have an abortion, then ask forgiveness and then simply do it again. That is habitual sin, and means you have not accepted responsibility and changed your ways. It's like the gangsters going to church after murdering someone, asking for forgiveness and doing it again.

It's like a dog going back to it's sick. It's why it is called being born again. You are born anew. If you keep in your old ways of sin you are not a new creation.

You ask for forgiveness of your sin and walk away from that. You cannot then go back to that sin, say an adulterous affair, again and again, because you are not truly repenting. You are not forever forgiven forever.

Listen carefully, it is why your name CAN be blotted out of the book of life as it says in the Bible - your name has to BE IN the book of life, for it to be able to be blotted out.

Admit it, and quit it. Not, admit it, and continuing doing it.

[Stu]

Abortion is part of the reason why America is under judgement. Innocent blood being spilled and bought and sold.

America is but one country of most in the world that have massive numbers of abortions. Stu, not that, per 1,000 women aborting children, S. Africa's rate of killing is 1/3 higher than the U.S. - so, the WORLD of nations is under God's judgment for this slaughter. China annually has 17.7 million and India 16. 6 million abortions!

See the rates by country: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... statistics

I'm sure God will judge SA as well, yes.

But judgement is coming to America and she will be judged harshly for she has sinned greatly, she has spread her sins far and wide and countries have followed her example. There are also the many hidden sins that grieves God. America has abused her position as world leader and once Christian nation and has become Mystery Babylon. Most of the big churches in America preach a false sugary gospel with no fire, just a tickling of ears to get the tithes flowing. Think Joel Olsteen and co.

I don't say this to bash America, or with any glee, there are still many good people there.

[Stu]

Sorry, but any Christian that is pro abortion needs a long hard look in the mirror, and has more than likely been living too long in our self-loving, secular, all-about-me society in which whatever "feels" right is then ok, which includes abortion, cutting off the genitalia of little kids, drugs, stealing, etc.

Sorry but if you feel you have the right to kill an unborn baby, you are not of the same Christianity that I belong to. No offense but yours is a watered down version where you mix in modern societies feelings and rights with God's law.
Sorry, but we don't call the shots, God does, full stop. We either obey His laws or we are in sin. You can't have one foot in modern secular society and another in Christianity, that is being luke warm.

Leave your feelings at home. God says you shall not murder. End of story.

I don’t think you have to worry about born again Christians getting abortions. I’m sure it happens but it’s probably quite rare. For any Christian woman who goes through an abortion for whatever reason, this sin is already forgiven. Is it a serious sin? Yes but it’s already forgiven. For unbelievers, forgiveness of this sin and all others is available free for the asking from God. Since you’re Christian, you already know this.

For the majority of people living in Western nations, practices such abortion, gay marriage and voluntary euthanasia of the terminally ill are acceptable in the secular realm. Are these sin? Yes. A tiny minority of citizens in Western nations are born again Christians; we can follow our conscience on moral matters. Faith in God is a personal matter; it’s not one that I would want to be regulated by the State.

Tell me something, do you agree that terminating a baby that has just been born is also ok?
And if you answer, no, why would you not?

What is the difference between one in the womb and one outside the womb.

There is no difference, it is a false reality that has been created by the abortionists to justify their murder.

[Philip]

Stu wrote: No, once saved always saved is false.

Stu wrote: Listen carefully, it is why your name CAN be blotted out of the book of life as it says in the Bible - your name has to BE IN the book of life, for it to be able to be blotted out.

Stu, this is false! Yes, to be with God in eternity, your name does have to be in the Book of Life. But WHEN were those names ALL put in there? After salvation? NO!

Revelation 13:8 says, “All who dwell on earth will worship (the beast), everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.”

Got that - the names were put in the Book of Life before the world existed! How is that possible? It's because God is ALL-knowing - He cannot be surprised by some future thing that He has not ALWAYS known about.

Besides, this losing one's salvation is VERY old and redundantly refuted assertion on the forum - here's but one exchange about it: viewtopic.php?p=253025&hilit=once+saved ... ed#p253025

[Fliegender]

FlieG wrote: The state has no business in this matter.

Our core values influence our political views - even though our political choices are often terrible, imperfect, and cannot match up with God's teachings. However, we all support various things that are politically driven and put into laws because this is often our only opportunity to help create boundaries for society that have consequences. Most of us support laws against theft, assault, rape, kidnapping, murder - yes, these things are all also prohibited in Scripture. So, are we to suppose that whenever we support certain things legally - that as Christians we shouldn't do so simply because it's our way of forcing our spiritual beliefs upon society? In a free society in which people have a say and a vote upon matters of the state, this means we ALL have such rights and freedoms....

Of course you have a right to vote for politicians that support your point of view on a particular subject (like abortion) but don’t expect their whole platform to coincide with your ideals. And certainly don’t expect to win! There’s a separation between Church and State - not so evident in the USA but quite evident in most democracies - and that’s how it should be. History has shown that whenever government joins forces with religion, the result is subjugation of the population and ultimately, war. You need only to look at the history of medieval Europe to see how bad things turn out when Church and State are One. Or look at modern theocracies! With only one exception*, modern theocracies are all ...just awful places for women and minorities.



*Vatican City...but that country is more of a headquarters than an actual nation