Here's what they're destroying: A HUMAN BEING!

[Stu]

Ah, Stu...your ability to understand simple words on a screen seems quite limited. Is Afrikaans your mother tongue?

And your ability to insult and make fun of serious topics is unbecoming.

You outright avoid the points I make and then shift the goal posts when you have no answer. Which is in almost every post.

You’re not making any sense, Stu. You would probably be right at home in a church like Westboro Baptist.

Ok, explain to me once more what your position is on abortion, because slow apparently Afrikaans people like me who belong to the Westboro Baptist church don't understand what you are saying.

[Philip]

FlieG wrote: Faith in God is a personal matter; it’s not one that I would want to be regulated by the State.

NO state can regulate one's faith! But abolishing abortion has to do with the majority's will and viewpoints as to the act of abortion - PERIOD - it is NOT forcing your faith upon someone else. If that were the case, you could say support for every law on the books that also reflects Christian values is also a forcing of faith upon the faithless - which is an absurd, cherry-picked view! For EVERY Christian, the question over legal abortion should begin and end for them with their consideration of what abortion is actually doing - and it's clear that it is taking God's image reflectors / HUMAN BEINGS and killing them in a brutal procedure in the womb. So, then the question for the Christian becomes, are you for allowing people to take human lives unnecessarily by ripping them apart in the womb. Again, I refer back to the video in this thread revealing the astonishingly advanced development of an unborn child at just 9 and 10 weeks, when many abortions are performed. And all of this holocaust is going on when Forbes Magazine reports the combined failure rate for birth-control pills, patches and rings is ONLY 7%. Where it the outcry for all these women who are failing to use, much less per instructions, birth control, which is widely available free across the U.S.? And with such a high percentage of proven pregnancy prevention easily accessible, why do people act as if this is so urgent or necessary - as opposed to killing millions in the womb???

Scripture clearly teaches that life begins in the womb, and that only in self defense, capital punishment, or when CLEARLY necessary to save the mother's life (where one or both will surely and otherwise die - VERY rare!). So, then, differentiating between whatever form of killing life is acceptable is a psychological lie / trick that many use to support their pro-choice / abortion on demand views! Would you want people to decide for themselves whether murdering another person should be left up to them? Stealing? Rape? Whatever mayhem? Do we wait until people fully understand what they are actually doing before asserting it to be a terrible crime and supporting whatever necessary laws to prevent such a terrible thing? And, BTW, it's not just Christians that are anti-abortion - large percentages of people from other faiths also are against it - and for the very same reason, as they see it as taking innocent human lives in a horrific act! So, ALL Christians DO have a moral / Bible-based responsibility to use their God-given votes to support laws that eliminate abortion on demand (all abortions not urgent to save a mother's life / again, VERY rare). Because if a Christian doesn't believe he has the right to use his vote to force others to obey laws preventing abortion, then this would also mean you don't have the right to vote for ANY political positions that compel moral behaviors - which are abundant on the law books, and can be found in even in the most atheistic / unbelieving countries where there is no freedom of voting!

[Fliegender]

Ok, explain to me once more what your position is on abortion, because slow apparently Afrikaans people like me who belong to the Westboro Baptist church don't understand what you are saying.

I didn’t say “slow Afrikaans people”; you are not reading what I wrote. You are stuffing my words with incorrect interpretations as you’ve been doing from the start.

If you want to understand my position clearly, go back and read our conversation all over again. My opinion on abortion is quite simple: there are two facets, the secular and the sacred. It’s not rocket science. When that’s done, come back and tell me in your own words what my position on abortion is. Once that’s done and if you are correct and refrain from “editorializing” then the discussion can continue.

[Stu]

Ok, explain to me once more what your position is on abortion, because slow apparently Afrikaans people like me who belong to the Westboro Baptist church don't understand what you are saying.

I didn’t say “slow Afrikaans people”; you are not reading what I wrote. You are stuffing my words with incorrect interpretations as you’ve been doing from the start.

If you want to understand my position clearly, go back and read our conversation all over again. My opinion on abortion is quite simple: there are two facets, the secular and the sacred. It’s not rocket science. When that’s done, come back and tell me in your own words what my position on abortion is. Once that’s done and if you are correct and refrain from “editorializing” then the discussion can continue.

The sacred (God) should always override the secular position if you are a Christian. God's position supersedes man's position every single time.

[Philip]

Stu: The sacred (God) should always override the secular position if you are a Christian. God's position supersedes man's position every single time.

This I agree with!

However, we also must realize that our secular / voting choices, on some issues, aren't neat or clearly black and white. Sometimes, we are forced to vote for a greater good, considering our desired choices are often unavailable, or only partially are. And sometimes, our choices appear to be between bad or even worse! And there are many in the world that are given NO choice - which is why I strongly encourage Christians to realize that they are blessed whenever they have the right to play the tiniest role in political decisions, as such outcomes can have immense impact.

[Fliegender]

The sacred (God) should always override the secular position if you are a Christian. God's position supersedes man's position every single time.

Of course. You’re just stating the obvious. If a born again Christian woman is faced with the decision to abort or not, I would expect her to bring the pregnancy to term; and that’s what she would probably do.

However, the majority of people are not Christian in the biblical sense. It’s not our job to force Christian morality on them.

[Philip]

It’s not our job to force Christian morality on them.

Flie, NO one can force their morality on another. But Scripture redundantly shows that we are to stand up and call out sinful practices, with kindness and humility. If you know someone that is considering abortion, you should share with them why it's wrong, how it transgresses God's laws, of options, of help they can receive. But to stay silent because you might think that speaking up would be forcing our morality on them - that is not only wrong, but it's also a direct contradiction of what the Bible actually teaches. As for abortion, if you accept, as Scripture clearly teaches, that an unborn child is a person created in the image of God, and that killing it is taking a human life (and in a most horrific fashion), then the idea that a Christian would not counsel a friend or acquaintance to not follow through with their intent to take an innocent life because that would be "forcing your morality on them" is not a Scriptural view, but a convenient secular lie. Don't fool yourself, as not speaking out because of such a false belief is a morphing of what OUR responsibility is as Christians (to stand up for truth, morality, against evil, etc.) vs. the moral RESPONSE of what the mother of an unborn child might be. The first is the Christian's responsibility! The response to our counsel to the woman we lovingly warn or encourage not to do this terrible thing - well, that terrible sin, if followed through on, will only be THEIR moral choice. And if they listened to your counsel - that, also, would (happily) be the WOMAN'S moral choice - and thankfully, would be due to the influence of the counseling Christian's moral INFLUENCE.

True personal story: When I was about 18, one of my closest friends (a non-Christian) got his high school girlfriend pregnant. Abortion had very recently become legal. At the time, I didn't realize that this pregnancy was an unborn human being in its early stages. All I knew was both sets of parents would have freaked out over the pregnancy and a nightmare of emotional upheaval would have occurred in my friends' families. So, I just saw this as a procedure that would solve things and completely avoid massive repercussions from their parents. So, to show "moral" support, I went and sat with my friends in the abortion clinic's waiting room. The gloomy mood and sad looks on those couples (and a few women were there alone) faces were (appropriately) as if they were attending a funeral of someone very close to them - and all of the women in the room knew they were all doing the exact same thing. Only much later, did I comprehend that my friends had destroyed a child's life. Of course, they broke up soon after. The girl later became a Christian and experienced tremendous sorrow and regret over what she later realized she had done. Also, somehow, while rare, this abortion caused her to be unable to ever get pregnant again. I can't imagine her anguish. And I sometimes consider whether, if I had properly understood what abortion does, and had only counseled my friend (the girl) to not go through with it, perhaps she would be a mother and grandmother today. And while she's certainly forgiven, she's still wounded and carries that hurt and terrible memory.

[Stu]

The sacred (God) should always override the secular position if you are a Christian. God's position supersedes man's position every single time.

Of course. You’re just stating the obvious. If a born again Christian woman is faced with the decision to abort or not, I would expect her to bring the pregnancy to term; and that’s what she would probably do.

However, the majority of people are not Christian in the biblical sense. It’s not our job to force Christian morality on them.

Wrong. Abortion was illegal in America for a long time. It should have remained that way.

Are you really saying that changing the law to make abortion legal was the right thing to do?
Are you really saying that making murder legal was the right thing to do?

When Jesus has his Millennial reign on the earth do you think abortion will be legal?
Was abortion legal when God led the Israelites?

[Fliegender]

True personal story: When I was about 18, one of my closest friends (a non-Christian) got his high school girlfriend pregnant. Abortion had very recently become legal. At the time, I didn't realize that this pregnancy was an unborn human being in its early stages. All I knew was both sets of parents would have freaked out over the pregnancy and a nightmare of emotional upheaval would have occurred in my friends' families. So, I just saw this as a procedure that would solve things and completely avoid massive repercussions from their parents. So, to show "moral" support, I went and sat with my friends in the abortion clinic's waiting room. The gloomy mood and sad looks on those couples (and a few women were there alone) faces were (appropriately) as if they were attending a funeral of someone very close to them - and all of the women in the room knew they were all doing the exact same thing. Only much later, did I comprehend that my friends had destroyed a child's life. Of course, they broke up soon after. The girl later became a Christian and experienced tremendous sorrow and regret over what she later realized she had done. Also, somehow, while rare, this abortion caused her to be unable to ever get pregnant again. I can't imagine her anguish. And I sometimes consider whether, if I had properly understood what abortion does, and had only counseled my friend (the girl) to not go through with it, perhaps she would be a mother and grandmother today. And while she's certainly forgiven, she's still wounded and carries that hurt and terrible memory.

First of all, when I said, “it’s not our job to force Christian morality on them” I was speaking in the sense of government legislation. If the population through the majority of their elected representatives have decided that abortion is legal, then it is legal. Period. My comment had nothing to do with the morality of any law. Secondly, people who know me know my position on abortion. No young woman has ever come to me wondering what to do with her unwanted pregnancy. If that were to happen, I would help her with continuing her pregnancy in any way I could but wouldn’t help her with getting an abortion. I certainly wouldn’t chew her out for deciding on an abortion or tell her she was going to eternally burn in Hell...!

Lastly, abortion itself is a traumatic experience for some women. So, whether a woman is Christian or not, she may regret it. That’s life and we all make mistakes.

[Fliegender]

Wrong. Abortion was illegal in America for a long time. It should have remained that way.

Are you really saying that changing the law to make abortion legal was the right thing to do?
Are you really saying that making murder legal was the right thing to do?

When Jesus has his Millennial reign on the earth do you think abortion will be legal?
Was abortion legal when God led the Israelites?

Abortion was legal in the USA for a long time, then the federal government declared it illegal and now various State legislatures are making it possible for women to get abortions again. I’m not concerned with whether it’s “the right thing to do”; if it’s legal, then it’s legal. Faith, religion and morality are private matters for each individual. I don’t want to live in a country where faith, religion and morality are legislated by government. Read my answer to Philip, above.

This discussion isn’t about the Millennial reign or the Israelites exodus from Egypt. Stay focused.

[Philip]

I don’t want to live in a country where faith, religion and morality are legislated by government.

Then you might want to move off of the planet, as there is a whole bunch of laws in every country that, in some way or another, legislate or enforce certain moral views that line up with a variety of faith backgrounds - or even with those of atheistic or agnostic beliefs. IF one sees abortion as a terrible thing, and it so happens that law is created that prevents that - you somehow find that BAD? Really, what are you more concerned over, politics or that less children will be killed? It sounds like you don't see abortion as for what it truly is, as I can't for the life of me understand how a person who sees abortion as killing an unborn human would be upset or uncomfortable if some law prevented it. What about murder, rape, etc. - have any problem with laws against such issues as these? If not,what's the difference - or are you not cherrypicking what laws you dislike that enforce certain moral views that line up with your spiritual values? Why the hypersensitivity over abortion law?

[Stu]

Wrong. Abortion was illegal in America for a long time. It should have remained that way.

Are you really saying that changing the law to make abortion legal was the right thing to do?
Are you really saying that making murder legal was the right thing to do?

When Jesus has his Millennial reign on the earth do you think abortion will be legal?
Was abortion legal when God led the Israelites?

Abortion was legal in the USA for a long time, then the federal government declared it illegal and now various State legislatures are making it possible for women to get abortions again. I’m not concerned with whether it’s “the right thing to do”; if it’s legal, then it’s legal. Faith, religion and morality are private matters for each individual. I don’t want to live in a country where faith, religion and morality are legislated by government. Read my answer to Philip, above.

This discussion isn’t about the Millennial reign or the Israelites exodus from Egypt. Stay focused.

What you've done is impose SECULAR rules onto everyone else. Do you not see it. Abortion and all the other secular laws are part of the atheists "religion".

You have just swapped God's laws for atheistic ones, their morals, which is a surprise........

You're not concerned whether it is the right thing to do Well then we could make stealing (as they have done in some Democrat states) legal or anything else for that matter.
No, they are not private matters, they are set out according to God's law. You obey or you are not a Christian.

You already live in a country where religion and morality are governed by the government. They have the last say.
And it's only going to get worse.

[Fliegender]

I don’t want to live in a country where faith, religion and morality are legislated by government.

Then you might want to move off of the planet, as there is a whole bunch of laws in every country that, in some way or another, legislate or enforce certain moral views that line up with a variety of faith backgrounds - or even with those of atheistic or agnostic beliefs. IF one sees abortion as a terrible thing, and it so happens that law is created that prevents that - you somehow find that BAD? Really, what are you more concerned over, politics or that less children will be killed? It sounds like you don't see abortion as for what it truly is, as I can't for the life of me understand how a person who sees abortion as killing an unborn human would be upset or uncomfortable if some law prevented it. What about murder, rape, etc. - have any problem with laws against such issues as these? If not,what's the difference - or are you not cherrypicking what laws you dislike that enforce certain moral views that line up with your spiritual values? Why the hypersensitivity over abortion law?

You probably didn’t notice that I wrote faith, religion and morality. This is as a group, a triad, a triumvirate, an interrelated trinity. Countries that are like this are Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, to name the three most despicable of the 7 theocracies in the world. Most Western democracies have laws inspired by Christian morality and recognize certain Christian holidays but these are now no more than vestiges of the past in most cases. The USA and Poland are the only two democracies I can think of where religion (not faith) is of some importance to a portion of the electorate. Nowhere else are elected representatives asked about their religion. For the most part, the people of Western nations are secular yet nominally Christian. Nominal Christianity is irrelevant from a biblical standpoint; such people are effectively atheists.

As for your questions about murder and rape...you’re now following Stu’s melodrama. Stay focused. The last nation to have legalized murder of certain citizens was Nazi Germany. Even the Nazis knew what they were doing was morally reprehensible and criminal which is why they tried to hide the evidence of their crimes.

[Fliegender]

What you've done is impose SECULAR rules onto everyone else. Do you not see it. Abortion and all the other secular laws are part of the atheists "religion".

You have just swapped God's laws for atheistic ones, their morals, which is a surprise........

You should re-read what you write before you post. It not possible for me to impose secular laws because I’m not an absolute monarch...! The people who decide on laws are the elected representatives of a nation.

You're not concerned whether it is the right thing to do Well then we could make stealing (as they have done in some Democrat states) legal or anything else for that matter.
No, they are not private matters, they are set out according to God's law. You obey or you are not a Christian.

You already live in a country where religion and morality are governed by the government. They have the last say.
And it's only going to get worse.

You obviously still don’t understand my position! My country doesn’t impose a religious morality on its citizens. Very few countries do that and all of them are probably not places where you would want to live...but these places do have strictly enforced anti abortion laws with severe punishments... maybe you’d like to live in Somalia after all!

[Philip]

As for your questions about murder and rape...you’re now following Stu’s melodrama. Stay focused. The last nation to have legalized murder of certain citizens was Nazi Germany. Even the Nazis knew what they were doing was morally reprehensible and criminal which is why they tried to hide the evidence of their crimes.

Oh, brother! That has zero to do with what I'm saying.