Church = Spiritual Israel?

[RGeeB]

I've been reading up on both sides of the argument recently. I'm now inclined to think that both could have truth in them on different levels. I've also gathered from the discussions that many are amillelianists here, so, I would expect strong arguments for spiritual Israel. I feel that a lot of end times theology hinges on this concept.

To start, let me put forward a couple of verses for discussion in context:Galatians 3:29 and Galatians 6:16

[RGeeB]

In addition, here's another thought. There is no difference in the inheritence of spiritual blessings currently and upon the return of Christ to reign from Jerusalem, there will be no difference in Earthly blessings. In the fulness of time, the physical gentiles and the Jews will be amalgamated into one, to inherit the physical blessings. (If you believe in a future reign of Christ on Earth)

[Jac3510]

I'm surprised no one has really commented on this. I thoroughly expected some here to be of the positive position . . .

I really need to get that Covenant Theology vs. Dispensationalism post up :p

[Anonymous]

When you speak of the Church I assume you are talking about the Gentiles mainly. If this is correct then, YES, the covenant of Abraham will be granted to the believing Gentiles. All true servants will get eternal life no matter what your race.

However, there are specific things that are related to Israel that cannot be attributed to any other people. Namely, that Jesus will live in Jerusalem with the children of Israel and Israel will once again be His priests.
Luke 1
31And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. (32)He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: (33) And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

... witness of two or three ...

Ezekiel 43
4And the glory of the LORD came into the house by the way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east. (5) So the spirit took me up, and brought me into the inner court; and, behold, the glory of the LORD filled the house. (6) And I heard him speaking unto me out of the house; and the man stood by me. (7) And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places. (8) In their setting of their threshold by my thresholds, and their post by my posts, and the wall between me and them, they have even defiled my holy name by their abominations that they have committed: wherefore I have consumed them in mine anger.

But there will be more nations that just Israel:

Revelation 21

(21)And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
22)And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23)And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24)And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25)And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26)And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

So, when it comes to the priesthood and the service of GOD only physical Israel will be used.

Isaiah 61:
3)To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.
4)And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.
5)And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.
6)But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.

Verse 6 clearly separates the Gentiles (or any other non-Israelites) from Israel who is to be the ministers of GOD.

This must be because this is what Jesus had Israel for all along.

Exodus 19
4)Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
5Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

One other tidbit: Israel IS THE CHURCH.

Read Acts 7 and it will tell that Moses was with THE CHURCH in the wilderness.

I can give more scripture if that helps.

[August]

My take is slightly different.

How do we define Israel? We must be careful to distinguish between people who were Isrealites merely because they were inhabiting Isreal at a given time, and the descendants of Abraham, Isac and Jacob, the 12 tribes. Jews, by definition in the OT were those who came from the tribe of Judah. In the NT, it can mean either from Judah, but also an inhabitant if the place called Judeah. So Isreal cannot only be the Jews, or current Isrealites who live there. I have read a lot of what became of the 9 and a bit tribes that were lost after being taken from Isreal (Judah, Benjamin and some of the Levites returned to Isreal), and basically their descendants have spread all across the world, but especially across Europe. Some also ended up in other places in the Middle East and North Africa.

How does the bloodline from the "lost" tribes tie into the whole Israel vs church argument?

[Anonymous]

I agree with what you are saying and I will go a little further. The people in Israel today ARE NOT JEWS, ARE NOT ISRALEITES OF ANY KIND.

and basically their descendants have spread all across the world, but especially across Europe. Some also ended up in other places in the Middle East and North Africa.

This is where we run contrary to the scriptures. The Israel of the Bible were to be scattered by others; bought and sold by others and oppressed by others. They were not to migrate.

Deut 28
24 The LORD shall make the rain of thy land powder and dust: from heaven shall it come down upon thee, until thou be destroyed.
25 The LORD shall cause thee to be smitten before thine enemies: thou shalt go out one way against them, and flee seven ways before them: and shalt be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth.

They were REMOVED.
Luke 21
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

There are SO SO many ways the GOD of Israel points out His servants. One of my favorites is this:

Deut 28
43 The stranger that is within thee shall get up above thee very high; and thou shalt come down very low.
44 He shall lend to thee, and thou shalt not lend to him: he shall be the head, and thou shalt be the tail.
45 Moreover all these curses shall come upon thee, and shall pursue thee, and overtake thee, till thou be destroyed; because thou hearkenedst not unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which he commanded thee:
46 And they shall be upon thee for a sign and for a wonder, and upon thy seed for ever.

Can the people in Israel lend? I think so. For scripture to be true there MUST be someone who CANNOT lend. These things are to be a sign to use to recognize the children of Jacob.

An even better one is this:

Isaiah 11
10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

As you probably already know, Jesus is the root and offspring of Jesse/David. Verse 10 speaks of His coming.
Verse 11 is the interesting part. THE LORD set His hand THE SECOND TIME to recover His people. So now we see the first time was Egypt and the second time happens at the coming of Jesus.
So, whatever happened in 1948 in that land was NOT the 2nd time He recovers His people.

Check out Ezekiel 35, Obadiah, Rev 2:9, Rev 3:9

These explain who took the land and who is claiming to be something they are not.

[Kurieuo]

The only priviledged position I believe they have is that God chose them as the people through which the rest of the world would be blessed. Other than this, there is no special consideration for the Jew compared with Gentile, as they broke God's covenant many times, and so God replaced it with a new open to all.

Kurieuo.

[August]

K, I agree, but who constitutes Israel if not the physical descendants of the 12 tribes?

E, good point, we need to identify Isreal according to Scripture. They were taken away as slaves, and spread as slaves, until assimilated into the local population, and losing their identity as Israelites.

What do you make of the following verses?

Matthew 10:6 (KJV)
But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 10:23 (KJV)
But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Matthew 15:24 (KJV)
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Do you understand this as Jesus saying that the physical Israel should get first preference due to the great responsibility God put on them?

[Kurieuo]

K, I agree, but who constitutes Israel if not the physical descendants of the 12 tribes?

That is certainly one meaning, but Paul emphasised another:
Romans 9:6-8—"It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring."

Romans 2:28-29—A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code.

Therefore, one should pay attention to the context and literary style being employed in Scripture when it comes to understanding which definition is meant.

With your Matthew verses, Jesus had not yet ascended, so the old covenant was still in session (sorry, I just realised these weren't directed towards me).

Kurieuo.

[August]

K, no worries. I don't want to offend here, this is just a subject I happened to have studied in some detail, and enjoy discussing.

Hebrews 8:8 (NIV)
But God found fault with the people and said:
"The time is coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah."

Yes, there is a new covenant made by Jesus, but again made with Isreal's 12 tribes, the 2 tribes of the house of Judah, and the 10 tribes of the house of Israel.

That is certainly one meaning, but Paul emphasised another:
Romans 9:6-8—"It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring."

I don't necessarily agree with you here. All this says is that Ishmaels children won't be Isreal, but the children of Isaac will. Remember that Isreal came from Jacob, Isaac's son.

Romans 2:28-29—A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. '

I think this says 2 things, one which we agree on (I think), is that Jews of the time could be anyone who lived in the area, so if one was a Jew on the outside only, it meant that he was not descended from Israel. The second part, where a man is a Jew inwardly, the inwardly comes from the Greek 'kruptos', also translated as 'concealed'. Paul speaks to the Gentiles here, but to a very specific group of people, those called to be saints, and this would be Israel Since Jesus sent his disciples to the lost sheep of the house of Isreal, could be the lineage of the lost tribes.

It still does not take way from God's grace and His promise that anyone who accepts Him will be saved.

[Kurieuo]

So can I take it you don't agree with Israel at any place in Scripture, is to be taken as all who belong to God?

I'm wondering, what do you make of Romans 11:25-26: 25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion;

Do you believe all who are considered Israel by natural descent will be saved?

What did Christ mean when he said of Nathanael, "Here is a true Israelite, in whom there is nothing false." (John 1:47)? Could there be Israelites who aren't Israelites, just as we would believe there are Christians who aren't Christian?

Psalm 73:1 says, "Surely God is good to Israel, to those who are pure in heart." (see also Psalm 24:6). Those are Israel, who seek Him and are pure in heart.

What does Ephesians 2:11-22 mean when it says Gentiles were "excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the convenants of the promise," (v.12) and then it says Christ "made the two one," (v.14) and then says, "Consequently, you [Gentiles] are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household." (v.19)

Kurieuo.

[Anonymous]

What Israel are you people talking about, the land? the current nation? the people?

[Kurieuo]

Just wanted to touch on a few more specifics...

K, no worries. I don't want to offend here, this is just a subject I happened to have studied in some detail, and enjoy discussing.

Don't worry, I see nothing wrong and am hard to offend in discussions.

Hebrews 8:8 (NIV)
But God found fault with the people and said:
"The time is coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah."

Yes, there is a new covenant made by Jesus, but again made with Isreal's 12 tribes, the 2 tribes of the house of Judah, and the 10 tribes of the house of Israel.

The Hebrews 8 passage is a derived interpretation from the Old Testament in Jeremiah 31:31. Another interpretation is also found in Hebrews 10:11-22 where it is applied to those who have been saved by Christ's atoning sacrifice.

Kurieuo.

[August]

I would never try and limit God's grace to just those who are descendants from Israel.

So can I take it you don't agree with Israel at any place in Scripture, is to be taken as all who belong to God?

I honestly don't know what to think. There seems to be an awful lot pointing to Israel as being chosen to be the primary resource for God, and being Jesus's first priority. Iit is written that the gift of salvation is God's to give. Also, Revelations mentions the great gathering of people from every nation in front of the throne of God, so clearly His grace extends to everyone who accepts Him. I just don't know that the name Israel applies to all who belongs to God. Joh also mentions this early on in his writings:

John 1:12 (NIV)
Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- John 1:13 (NIV)
children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God."

I certainly don't believe that if you are a descendant from Jacob that you will automatically be saved, you still have to accept Jesus as your saviour, and embrace God.

What did Christ mean when he said of Nathanael, "Here is a true Israelite, in whom there is nothing false." (John 1:47)? Could there be Israelites who aren't Israelites, just as we would believe there are Christians who aren't Christian?

Yes. I reckon it would be close to impossible in any case to track down who is an 'Israelite' these days.

Psalm 73:1 says, "Surely God is good to Israel, to those who are pure in heart." (see also Psalm 24:6). Those are Israel, who seek Him and are pure in heart.

I don't see the exclusiveness that you see here, I see God is good to those Israelites who are pure in heart.

What does Ephesians 2:11-22 mean when it says Gentiles were "excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the convenants of the promise," (v.12) and then it says Christ "made the two one," (v.14) and then says, "Consequently, you [Gentiles] are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household." (v.19)

I want to mention the translation again here, don't you think what was being called 'gentiles' were the non-Jews, but were in fact the lost tribes, who had been assimilated into the Greeks and Romans, and were not practicing the Jewish faith any more?

I don't really know if it matters or not whether the church is Israel or not. God put a special responsibility on Israel, and promised a special reward. We know what our task as Christians is:

Mark 16:15-16 (NIV)
He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. [16] Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. "

Whether we are Israel, I don't know. I need to dig out some of my old research on this, then I can explain it better from my perspective.

[BavarianWheels]

The only priviledged position I believe they have is that God chose them as the people through which the rest of the world would be blessed. Other than this, there is no special consideration for the Jew compared with Gentile, as they broke God's covenant many times, and so God replaced it with a new open to all.

Kurieuo.

I agree that there is a spiritual Israel as the texts of the initial post claim. I don't hold to dispensationalism.

On the quote above I would agree on the whole, however I find exception with the last 9 words.

I believe the covenant has never been only for the Jews, but rather the Jews "hoarded" it. It was for all people, but given FIRST to the "Jews".

"The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath."

Jesus spoke these words. Notice no mention of Jew, Hebrew, or Gentile, but all inclusive MAN.
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