The Quadruplet Quandary

[Morny]

As far as I can tell, Christian fundamental beliefs are:

1. Eternal salvation in heaven _requires_ the belief that Jesus is God.

2. Hell is real and unrelenting eternal torment for those who reject
that Jesus is God. Heaven is eternal bliss.

3. God unequivocally loves everyone, no matter how evil, no matter
their religion.

Consider that four identical quadruplets are separated at birth. Each is
healthy and highly intelligent, but grows up in a different strongly religious
environment.

The 1st becomes a devout Christian.
The 2nd becomes a devout Jew.
The 3rd becomes a devout Muslim.
The 4th ... well, we'll get back to him later.

Each thoroughly understands the basis for not only their own religion,
but also their siblings' religions. Yet, each sincerely and thoughtfully
believe their siblings are mistaken.

So how can the loving Christian God justify that the devout and sincere
Jewish and Muslim quadruplets spend an eternity in unrelenting torment?

[Fliegender]

As far as I can tell, Christian fundamental beliefs are:

1. Eternal salvation in heaven _requires_ the belief that Jesus is God.

Nope, that’s not what “eternal salvation in heaven” requires. All nominal Christians will profess that Jesus is God but most nominal Christians are on their way to someplace very hot . The requirement for salvation can be found in John 3:3-5. Look it up.

2. Hell is real and unrelenting eternal torment for those who reject
that Jesus is God. Heaven is eternal bliss.

You did better on this point although the “eternal bliss” sounds more like poetic license... but maybe you’re a touchy-feely type so I’ll let it pass.

. God unequivocally loves everyone, no matter how evil, no matter
their religion.

...yeah, the word “unequivocally” sounds touchy-feely to me. I would prefer the word “unconditionally” because that’s what the Bible actually says. The rest of your point is okay.

Consider that four identical quadruplets are separated at birth. Each is
healthy and highly intelligent, but grows up in a different strongly religious
environment.

The 1st becomes a devout Christian.
The 2nd becomes a devout Jew.
The 3rd becomes a devout Muslim.
The 4th ... well, we'll get back to him later.

Each thoroughly understands the basis for not only their own religion,
but also their siblings' religions. Yet, each sincerely and thoughtfully
believe their siblings are mistaken.

So how can the loving Christian God justify that the devout and sincere
Jewish and Muslim quadruplets spend an eternity in unrelenting torment?

The mistake you made here is in this sentence, Each thoroughly understands the basis for not only their religion, but also for their siblings‘ religions.

If they don’t know Jesus is God and accept him as Lord and saviour, their “understanding” is incomplete. If they understood who Jesus is, they would become Christians. I should add that you obviously never discussed Jesus and Christianity with devout Muslims! Many devout Muslims are quite familiar with the Bible and comb through it looking for their prophet, or use the Bible to justify the Quran. Muslims will argue with a Christian nonstop to the point of insults. They most definitely don’t “thoroughly understand” who Jesus is or what he came to do.

Lastly, “sincerity” to a religion - Christian or otherwise - is NOT a condition of Salvation. Nor are good deeds, giving to charity, getting baptized, going to hajj in Mecca, praying at the Western Wall, studying years at a yeshiva, lighting votive candles 🕯...and so in. Go back and read John 3:3-5. Your answer is there.

[Morny]

To "Fliegender":

Your Jewish and Muslim siblings are going to hell? Yes? Or no?

Assuming yes, how can the loving Christian God do that to your quadruplet siblings? Those 2 people are as just as smart, knowledgeable, and sincere that you are mistaken, as you are about them.

[Philip]

The reality is NO one is limited by their surrounding religions from seeking God as He truly is. God gave ALL free will to seek whatever they want to. All people everywhere are completely free to decide to just go along with whatever religious teachings they so desire to, and continue to deny, reject or avoid the true God, and fail to accept / embrace Him as He actually is. And one can’t know what - or WHOM - they are determined NOT to know. Do they seek the truth? Do they even WANT to know it? Are people FORCED to accept the religion of their parents or of the surrounding culture? NO! Have they ever attempted to communicate with the TRUE God? Atheists reject all gods and God - regardless of culture or how they were brought up - and everyone else can as well!

God has already provided ample powerful evidences for His existence AND the Bible says He WANTS to reveal Himself to them, but He reveals Himself on a deeper level (that is, beyond His mere existence) to those who won’t continue their resistance to Him. God does’t cause ANYONE to go to Hell! But He allows THEM to freely choose it per whether or not THEY reject Him. Of course, people don’t want Hell, but they DO want to nonetheless reject God. And God has connected every person’s choice (whether accepting or rejecting Him) to one of two very different fates!

[Fliegender]

To "Fliegender":

Your Jewish and Muslim siblings are going to hell? Yes? Or no?

Assuming yes, how can the loving Christian God do that to your quadruplet siblings? Those 2 people are as just as smart, knowledgeable, and sincere that you are mistaken, as you are about them.

You can’t figure out the answer from what I wrote? ...and you say your quadruplets understand “perfectly” each other’s beliefs?! You must be the fourth quadruplet... You can’t even figure out the answer to your own simple question, Einstein.

[Fliegender]

The reality is NO one is limited by their surrounding religions from seeking God as He truly is. God gave ALL free will to seek whatever they want to. All people everywhere are completely free to decide to just go along with whatever religious teachings they so desire to, and continue to deny, reject or avoid the true God, and fail to accept / embrace Him as He actually is. And one can’t know what - or WHOM - they are determined NOT to know. Do they seek the truth? Do they even WANT to know it? Are people FORCED to accept the religion of their parents or of the surrounding culture? NO! Have they ever attempted to communicate with the TRUE God? Atheists reject all gods and God - regardless of culture or how they were brought up - and everyone else can as well!

God has already provided ample powerful evidences for His existence AND the Bible says He WANTS to reveal Himself to them, but He reveals Himself on a deeper level (that is, beyond His mere existence) to those who won’t continue their resistance to Him. God does’t cause ANYONE to go to Hell! But He allows THEM to freely choose it per whether or not THEY reject Him. Of course, people don’t want Hell, but they DO want to nonetheless reject God. And God has connected every person’s choice (whether accepting or rejecting Him) to one of two very different fates!

Your’s is the politically correct version of my answer.

[Morny]

Philip gives a thoughtful, reasoned answer, and asks questions whose answers I assume are relevant to whether a person will go to hell? If so, Philip, do I have to answer those questions for your Jewish and Muslim siblings before seeing your thumbs-up or thumbs-down regarding their ultimate fates?

Ironically, Fliegender gives an answer that some might consider as un-Christian-like.

Guys, I'm not asking a gotcha question, so I'm not sure why neither of you will explicitly say:
"Unfortunately, my dear beloved Jewish and Muslim siblings will go to hell."

[Fliegender]

Philip gives a thoughtful, reasoned answer, and asks questions whose answers I assume are relevant to whether a person will go to hell? If so, Philip, do I have to answer those questions for your Jewish and Muslim siblings before seeing your thumbs-up or thumbs-down regarding their ultimate fates?

Ironically, Fliegender gives an answer that some might consider as un-Christian-like.

Guys, I'm not asking a gotcha question, so I'm not sure why neither of you will explicitly say:
"Unfortunately, my dear beloved Jewish and Muslim siblings will go to hell."

Hahaha...an unbeliever saying that “some might consider [my answer] un-Christian-like”. Another genius who thinks Christians are all produced by a cookie-cutter. Here, Einstein, is the answer you can’t figure out for yourself:

Anyone who isn’t born of the Spirit will be spending eternity apart from God.

Did you ever manage to read John 3:3-5 or did your dog eat that page?

[Philip]

Philip gives a thoughtful, reasoned answer, and asks questions whose answers I assume are relevant to whether a person will go to hell? If so, Philip, do I have to answer those questions for your Jewish and Muslim siblings before seeing your thumbs-up or thumbs-down regarding their ultimate fates?

Morny, it matters not one’s religious beliefs or affiliation that ultimately and forever separates them from God. It’s that they refuse to embrace God as He truly exists - which is the God fully revealed in the New Testament, the Father / Son / Spirit Trinitarian God. Those bound for Hell will only forever reject Him. I don’t like the reality of Hell, but I also don’t make the rules - God does. I must trust a God who not only has the brilliance and ability to create an incredible, vast and complex universe, but Who also died for us out of unfathomable love - beyond any level of love humans can conceive.

But why do you care so much about the nuances of a God you don’t even believe in? Why would you have spent so much time and years posting in opposition to a God you think doesn’t exist? And of all the religions and so-called Gods, why focus primarily on the Christian God to refute? Are you trying to convince others - or perhaps, mostly, yourself - of your position?

[Fliegender]

This Quadruplet Quantary reminds me of a similar thread from long ago that I just tracked down. It's entitled Abdul becomes a Christian...what does he do with his 4 wives? That was a question asked to me by an atheist a few years ago. A question about a highly improbable impossible situation like this Quadruplet Quandary but which needed an answer. That question was answered in a humorous way by myself and RickD.

I just reread that thread...it's hilarious! ...recommended reading.

[abelcainsbrother]

To "Fliegender":

Your Jewish and Muslim siblings are going to hell? Yes? Or no?

Assuming yes, how can the loving Christian God do that to your quadruplet siblings? Those 2 people are as just as smart, knowledgeable, and sincere that you are mistaken, as you are about them.

If we Christians were wrong we will be punished. So I don't see your point. It is all of our responsibility to make sure that we are be3lieving in the true God and not a false God. You are gambling yourself not believing in a god and living that way and you will pay the price if you're wrong,just like we will. But we Christians are not wrong.And since you seem to be following an atheistic path there is no evidence at all you're correct to be living as if a god does not exist because atheists are the only group in the world that offers no evidence at all they are correct eventhough they still choose to live that way and so we already know you're wrong.

[abelcainsbrother]

When we must consider many different religions and world views we must go by evidence because it is the only way to know the true one.Not matter what religion or world view we choose we are gambling we are correct and we will be punished if we are wrong.And for atheists to sit there and reject,deny and explain away any and all evidence God is real and specifically Christianity is true and then turn around and embrace an atheist world view where they openly and proudly admit they offer no proof or evidence they are correct at all is just nonsense.Then they allow these people to influence how they think and live. It is truly the blind leading the blind in real time.And it proves atheists do not really care about truth,evidence and proof or making sure they are correct like they act.We already know atheism is the wrong world view.It is at the very bottom of ALL religions and world views when it comes to proof and evidence you're correct. So that we don't even have to consider atheism could be the correct world view where we just die and that is it. Very empty and boring too!

[Morny]

Philip: thank you for your helpful follow-up:
> [...] they refuse to embrace God as He truly exists - which is the God
> fully revealed in the New Testament, the Father / Son / Spirit Trinitarian
> God.

Please correct me if I'm misrepresenting your follow-up, but I feel like my earlier characterization that rejection of "the belief that Jesus is God", is similar enough to your follow-up wording to be sufficient(?) for a sentence to Hell. Yes?

Another of your points is also relevant to my original post, viz.,
"they refuse to embrace God"

Your key word is "refuse". Your Jewish and Muslim siblings are not "refusing" (in the pejorative sense) to embrace Jesus as God. I.e., _neither_ are thinking something like: "Yes, Jesus is God, but I stubbornly _refuse_ either to worship Him or investigate further."

Friendships with devout Jews and Muslims make me suspect that their rejection of "Jesus is God" is as thoughtful and sincere as (I suspect) your rejection of certain tenants of their faiths.


> But why do you care so much about the nuances of a God you don’t even believe in?

My curiosity about my own (_especially_ my own) and others' potential misconceptions is insatiable. At _most_ one of the quadruplet siblings can be correct, because their fundamental faiths/beliefs are mutually exclusive. In my math, engineering, and science work, I have never been more thrilled to discover _why_ I was mistaken. The reason is that I would climb up another rung on the ladder of misunderstanding.

The Quadruplet Quandary is just one thought experiment that asks how the loving Christian God could condemn a bewildered Jew, Muslim, or whoever, to hell for eternity. If this were not a Christian site, the thought experiments would be different.

Again, thank you for your patience in trying to understand my point.

[Fliegender]

When we must consider many different religions and world views we must go by evidence because it is the only way to know the true one.Not matter what religion or world view we choose we are gambling we are correct and we will be punished if we are wrong.And for atheists to sit there and reject,deny and explain away any and all ...

You're too hard on atheists. Hatred of God is the default position of humanity and that's why there are so many false faiths. We naturally hate God so we invent a god in our own image to replace Him. Atheists are in no way special or singled out for extra torment in Hell. In this sense, if you're Muslim, Mormon, atheist or a nominal Christian, you're toast. Separation from God for eternity after death is your chosen lot.

[abelcainsbrother]

When we must consider many different religions and world views we must go by evidence because it is the only way to know the true one.Not matter what religion or world view we choose we are gambling we are correct and we will be punished if we are wrong.And for atheists to sit there and reject,deny and explain away any and all ...

You're too hard on atheists. Hatred of God is the default position of humanity and that's why there are so many false faiths. We naturally hate God so we invent a god in our own image to replace Him. Atheists are in no way special or singled out for extra torment in Hell. In this sense, if you're Muslim, Mormon, atheist or a nominal Christian, you're toast. Separation from God for eternity after death is your chosen lot.

Since you chose atheism which is the only group in the world that offers no proof or evidence they are correct it proves you allow people who have no proof or evidence to influence how you think and live and so we do not accept your atheist opinion.You living as if a god does not exist is gambling you are correct without making sure you are correct.You just have your non-evidence based atheist opinions.You're toast,not me.You actually choosing atheism because they offer you death is the most boring of all afterlifes out there and I would never give up my promise of heaven for "just death" like you.We know you're wrong due to no proof or evidence for atheism.

I Want In That Place. For You.
https://youtu.be/-mh_4oaDezM?si=A8o8DL5Z3f4Bthhl