The Quadruplet Quandary

[Philip]

When we must consider many different religions and world views we must go by evidence because it is the only way to know the true one.Not matter what religion or world view we choose we are gambling we are correct and we will be punished if we are wrong.And for atheists to sit there and reject,deny and explain away any and all ...

You're too hard on atheists. Hatred of God is the default position of humanity and that's why there are so many false faiths. We naturally hate God so we invent a god in our own image to replace Him. Atheists are in no way special or singled out for extra torment in Hell. In this sense, if you're Muslim, Mormon, atheist or a nominal Christian, you're toast. Separation from God for eternity after death is your chosen lot.

Since you chose atheism which is the only group in the world that offers no proof or evidence they are correct it proves you allow people who have no proof or evidence to influence how you think and live and so we do not accept your atheist opinion.You living as if a god does not exist is gambling you are correct without making sure you are correct.You just have your non-evidence based atheist opinions.You're toast,not me.You actually choosing atheism because they offer you death is the most boring of all afterlifes out there and I would never give up my promise of heaven for "just death" like you.We know you're wrong due to no proof or evidence for atheism.

I Want In That Place. For You.
https://youtu.be/-mh_4oaDezM?si=A8o8DL5Z3f4Bthhl

Abel, where did you get the idea that Flie is an atheist? What he seems to be saying is, no matter one's beliefs or faith apart from Christ, their eternal fate and damnation is the same.

[abelcainsbrother]

When we must consider many different religions and world views we must go by evidence because it is the only way to know the true one.Not matter what religion or world view we choose we are gambling we are correct and we will be punished if we are wrong.And for atheists to sit there and reject,deny and explain away any and all ...

You're too hard on atheists. Hatred of God is the default position of humanity and that's why there are so many false faiths. We naturally hate God so we invent a god in our own image to replace Him. Atheists are in no way special or singled out for extra torment in Hell. In this sense, if you're Muslim, Mormon, atheist or a nominal Christian, you're toast. Separation from God for eternity after death is your chosen lot.

Since you chose atheism which is the only group in the world that offers no proof or evidence they are correct it proves you allow people who have no proof or evidence to influence how you think and live and so we do not accept your atheist opinion.You living as if a god does not exist is gambling you are correct without making sure you are correct.You just have your non-evidence based atheist opinions.You're toast,not me.You actually choosing atheism because they offer you death is the most boring of all afterlifes out there and I would never give up my promise of heaven for "just death" like you.We know you're wrong due to no proof or evidence for atheism.

I Want In That Place. For You.
https://youtu.be/-mh_4oaDezM?si=A8o8DL5Z3f4Bthhl

Abel, where did you get the idea that Flie is an atheist? What he seems to be saying is, no matter one's beliefs or faith apart from Christ, their eternal fate and damnation is the same.

Oh I see,I posted to the wrong person.Sorry about that.I do see what he is saying now that you pointed it out. But I would just say that I don't think atheists are singled out for extra punishment as they are just as lost as some one in a false religion believing in a false god.But atheists have this idea that they are nuetral and choose to kind of stay in a state of limbo where they seem to think that they have no path to choose when in reality they are gambling they are correct just like everybody else and will pay the price for being wrong.Just like if we Christians were somehow wrong.We would be punished too.Nobody is really free from being punished if they end up being wrong when they die,Atheists included,so that it behooves them to go by evidence and make sure they are correct,which they refuse to do.

[Morny]

Response to Fliegender:

> You're too hard on atheists. Hatred of God is the default position of
> humanity and that's why there are so many false faiths.

You think Jews, Muslims, atheists, etc., hate your God?! I've never talked to _any_ contemplative sincere Jew, Muslim, atheist, who said that they hate your God. They do sincerely think you're mistaken, just as you think they are.


> We naturally hate God so we invent a god in our own image to replace Him.

Ah, I think I see your point now. That must be why I spend hours a day hating God, and then trying to create a God in my own image. My bad.


> Atheists are in no way special or singled out for extra torment in Hell. In
> this sense, if you're Muslim, Mormon, atheist or a nominal Christian, you're
> toast.

Yes, because that's what an all-loving God would do - "toast" us for our sincere beliefs. And God loves the mother (in heaven) who for eternity sees her cherished child (in hell) being "toast"-ed.

Multiple people here seem convinced that after being fully exposed to Christianity's wisdom, a person's non-belief in Jesus as God becomes sufficient grounds for admission to hell from an all-loving God. Textbook supercilious.

[Morny]

Response to abelcainsbrother:

> You living as if a god does not exist is gambling you are correct without making sure you are correct.

Which of you, a Jew, and a Muslim are correct? All 3 religious faiths are mutually exclusive - at _most_ one of you is correct. Why don't the Jew and Muslim accept your evidence/proof?

I, on the other hand, believe in the one and only true god, viz., the Flying Spaghetti Monster. I usually commune with one of his Earthly representatives every weekend, viz., Lasagna, Fettuccine, and Rigatoni.

[Philip]

Multiple people here seem convinced that after being fully exposed to Christianity's wisdom, a person's non-belief in Jesus as God becomes sufficient grounds for admission to hell from an all-loving God. Textbook supercilious.

While God set the parameters, tying one's choosing OR rejecting Him to only one of two different fates after this life, those rejecting Him are effectively choosing their eternal fate themselves. God created us, He's has perfect knowledge and understandings beyond our comprehension - He has the right to set up eternity and punishment (or NO punishment, for Christians) however He deems best. And for those who remain unsaved before death, their punishment will be both just and match only THEIR own sins. While those dying unsaved are punished, ultimately, they don't go to Hell for their sins, but for their rejection of God (of Whom embracing is THE key to Heaven and forgiveness of ALL of their past, present and future sins!), is why they go to Hell. Christians, as we are still mortal and currently incapable of eliminating all of our sins, are not held accountable for them because we have accepted Jesus and His sacrificial substitute that has paid for ALL of our past, present and future sins. The eternal reality is, God will allow NO corruption or rebels into His eternal Heaven! He ultimately only wants those who desire and love Him to be there.

According to Scripture, Jesus and His Apostles, despite its many glories, wonders, beauty and peace, the most amazing and wonderful aspect of Heaven will be joyfully remaining in God's loving and Holy presence forever! Heaven is ALL about God and Christians relationship with Him, which the Bible says will be wonderful beyond our current comprehension. And, as no unbeliever wants what the Bible says Heaven is ALL about (which is GOD / CHRIST!), then why would they ever want to go there? The permanently unbelieving person doesn't - and will never - want God during their brief lifetime here on earth, so why would they want to be in His presence for an ETERNITY? What the unbeliever might delusionally hope might exist is some kind of heaven or afterlife filled with beauty, fun, stunning skies or butterflies, etc, yet that allows them to continue to make themselves the master of all THEY personally do and desire, BUT WITHOUT GOD AT THEIR CENTER or focus. But THAT Heaven does NOT exist!

Again, Morny, if you believe NO God or gods exist, why do you care so much? Why relentlessly (and for YEARS) be obsessed with debating and attempting to debunk a God you insist doesn't even exist? Or continuously assert a false, UNBIBLICAL caricature of what the Bible says He is like? God does NOT want you to go to Hell, and neither do Scripture-accepting Christians. He offers you eternal life through faith in Him - but you refuse it. Are you on other forums arguing against other religions' deities and their beliefs - or are you only obsessed with Christian teachings and our God? Obsession with a God and faith you insist is all hogwash makes very little sense - which is why I think you and others are often and mostly trying to convince themselves that rejecting Christ is just fine - or perhaps, a badge of some kind of perverse or intellectually superior honor. I only care what others believe because I want then to find Christ and eternal life, and to avoid the punishment and eternal separation from Him that Scripture teaches - and for them to live a more meaningful and peace-building life while still on earth!

[Fliegender]

When we must consider many different religions and world views we must go by evidence because it is the only way to know the true one.Not matter what religion or world view we choose we are gambling we are correct and we will be punished if we are wrong.And for atheists to sit there and reject,deny and explain away any and all ...

You're too hard on atheists. Hatred of God is the default position of humanity and that's why there are so many false faiths. We naturally hate God so we invent a god in our own image to replace Him. Atheists are in no way special or singled out for extra torment in Hell. In this sense, if you're Muslim, Mormon, atheist or a nominal Christian, you're toast. Separation from God for eternity after death is your chosen lot.

Since you chose atheism which is the only group in the world that offers no proof or evidence they are correct it proves you allow people who have no proof or evidence to influence how you think and live and so we do not accept your atheist opinion.You living as if a god does not exist is gambling you are correct without making sure you are correct.You just have your non-evidence based atheist opinions.You're toast,not me.You actually choosing atheism because they offer you death is the most boring of all afterlifes out there and I would never give up my promise of heaven for "just death" like you.We know you're wrong due to no proof or evidence for atheism.

I Want In That Place. For You.
https://youtu.be/-mh_4oaDezM?si=A8o8DL5Z3f4Bthhl

I choose atheism?! You seem confused Are you stoned?

[abelcainsbrother]

Response to abelcainsbrother:

> You living as if a god does not exist is gambling you are correct without making sure you are correct.

Which of you, a Jew, and a Muslim are correct? All 3 religious faiths are mutually exclusive - at _most_ one of you is correct. Why don't the Jew and Muslim accept your evidence/proof?

I, on the other hand, believe in the one and only true god, viz., the Flying Spaghetti Monster. I usually commune with one of his Earthly representatives every weekend, viz., Lasagna, Fettuccine, and Rigatoni.

Yes,based on the law of non-contradiction only one religion/world view is and can be correct because they all contradict.So based on this the Jew,Muslim,Christian and even Atheist cannot all be correct and only one is and can be correct. You are gambling living as if no god exists gambling you are correct with atheism.I'm gambling Christianity is true,the Jew is gambling Judaism is true and the Muslim is gambling Islam is true but only one is correct and it is Christianity.There are many reasons people choose wrong.But when are you going to decide to go by evidence and make sure you are correct? Because you're not doing it living as an atheist.And you're not neutral living as an atheist where you think you have no path to choose. You are willfully and knowingly living as if no god exists and this is putting action into it and it is a choice by choosing to do it.You could die at any time so time is running out.But more importantly you're wrong for doing it due to a lack of proof or evidence for atheism.This proves you allow people who offer you no proof or evidence to influence how you think and live and it proves you don't care about evidence or even making sure you are correct.So why are you aking if Jews or Muslims accept Christian's proof/evidence when you don't? You don't go by evidence yourself so why worry about Jews and Muslims? They atleast offer evidence unlike atheists eventhough they are wrong too.Jews ignore God still honor's blood covenant's and blood sacrifice for purification and Muslim's just think Allah just overlooks sin and allows in sinners to Islam Paradise to contaminate it with sin.

[abelcainsbrother]

When we must consider many different religions and world views we must go by evidence because it is the only way to know the true one.Not matter what religion or world view we choose we are gambling we are correct and we will be punished if we are wrong.And for atheists to sit there and reject,deny and explain away any and all ...

You're too hard on atheists. Hatred of God is the default position of humanity and that's why there are so many false faiths. We naturally hate God so we invent a god in our own image to replace Him. Atheists are in no way special or singled out for extra torment in Hell. In this sense, if you're Muslim, Mormon, atheist or a nominal Christian, you're toast. Separation from God for eternity after death is your chosen lot.

Since you chose atheism which is the only group in the world that offers no proof or evidence they are correct it proves you allow people who have no proof or evidence to influence how you think and live and so we do not accept your atheist opinion.You living as if a god does not exist is gambling you are correct without making sure you are correct.You just have your non-evidence based atheist opinions.You're toast,not me.You actually choosing atheism because they offer you death is the most boring of all afterlifes out there and I would never give up my promise of heaven for "just death" like you.We know you're wrong due to no proof or evidence for atheism.

I Want In That Place. For You.
https://youtu.be/-mh_4oaDezM?si=A8o8DL5Z3f4Bthhl

I choose atheism?! You seem confused Are you stoned?

Sorry about that.

[abelcainsbrother]

As far as I can tell, Christian fundamental beliefs are:

1. Eternal salvation in heaven _requires_ the belief that Jesus is God.

2. Hell is real and unrelenting eternal torment for those who reject
that Jesus is God. Heaven is eternal bliss.

3. God unequivocally loves everyone, no matter how evil, no matter
their religion.

Consider that four identical quadruplets are separated at birth. Each is
healthy and highly intelligent, but grows up in a different strongly religious
environment.

The 1st becomes a devout Christian.
The 2nd becomes a devout Jew.
The 3rd becomes a devout Muslim.
The 4th ... well, we'll get back to him later.

Each thoroughly understands the basis for not only their own religion,
but also their siblings' religions. Yet, each sincerely and thoughtfully
believe their siblings are mistaken.

So how can the loving Christian God justify that the devout and sincere
Jewish and Muslim quadruplets spend an eternity in unrelenting torment?

Morny.You do realize that by you choosing atheism there is no basis for what is right or wrong for you.So you cannot know what is good or bad that you think applies to God.I sense you think it is wrong if God sends people to hell but in the atheist world view there is no basis for right or wrong and so you cannot know.You are having to borrow from religions and specifically Christianity that goes all the way back to the beginning to know what is right or wrong and then try to make it apply to God.But if you're going to live as if a god does not exist in the atheist world view then you cannot say what is right or wrong when it comes to God or anything like slavery,etc. I mean you can but we don't have to honor it.You really have'nt taken the time to think things through and make sure YOU are correct.

[Philip]

Morny.You do realize that by you choosing atheism there is no basis for what is right or wrong for you.So you cannot know what is good or bad that you think applies to God.I sense you think it is wrong if God sends people to hell but in the atheist world view there is no basis for right or wrong and so you cannot know.You are having to borrow from religions and specifically Christianity that goes all the way back to the beginning to know what is right or wrong and then try to make it apply to God.But if you're going to live as if a god does not exist in the atheist world view then you cannot say what is right or wrong when it comes to God or anything like slavery,etc. I mean you can but we don't have to honor it.You really have'nt taken the time to think things through and make sure YOU are correct.

Abe, I am baffled as to why you think Flie isn't a Christian - I don't think you've read his posts carefully.

[Fliegender]

Response to Fliegender:

> You're too hard on atheists. Hatred of God is the default position of
> humanity and that's why there are so many false faiths.

You think Jews, Muslims, atheists, etc., hate your God?! I've never talked to _any_ contemplative sincere Jew, Muslim, atheist, who said that they hate your God. They do sincerely think you're mistaken, just as you think they are.


> We naturally hate God so we invent a god in our own image to replace Him.

Ah, I think I see your point now. That must be why I spend hours a day hating God, and then trying to create a God in my own image. My bad.


> Atheists are in no way special or singled out for extra torment in Hell. In
> this sense, if you're Muslim, Mormon, atheist or a nominal Christian, you're
> toast.

Yes, because that's what an all-loving God would do - "toast" us for our sincere beliefs. And God loves the mother (in heaven) who for eternity sees her cherished child (in hell) being "toast"-ed.

Multiple people here seem convinced that after being fully exposed to Christianity's wisdom, a person's non-belief in Jesus as God becomes sufficient grounds for admission to hell from an all-loving God. Textbook supercilious.

Oh, stop being so melodramatic! I never said you spent “hours a day” hating god. You’re not very attentive to what is clearly written here so I’m not surprised that you have trouble understanding much. That probably goes for other aspects of your life as well.

Tough luck for you if you can’t accept God not rewarding sincerity. Do worry, God isn’t going to force you to spend eternity with Him if you don’t like the way He’s set things up.

[Morny]

Response to Philip:

Again, thank you for your clear response.

> And, as no unbeliever wants what the Bible says Heaven is ALL about (which is GOD / CHRIST!), ...

Your idea here misrepresents my position. You will find this hard to believe, but I want Christianity to be true as much as you do! Among the most trivial of innumerable benefits, I would get to see the simplest proofs/disproofs for the Goldbach and Collatz Conjectures. I would get to see the minimal Worm Blanket. I would understand the underlying basis of how Quantum Mechanics (QM) worked in order to explain the double-slit experiment and the start of the Big Bang. Then I would have the privilege of saying things to God like:
"I see what you did there with QM! Nice one!"
and
"What the Hell (oops, sorry God for using that word) was I thinking
when I doubted Philip back on Earth in that blog?!"

Not that this matters one whit, but technically I'm not an atheist. I'm an agnostic - I'm not certain about anything.

Also, as everyone knows, an atheist is someone who watches Notre Dame play Southern Methodist and doesn't care who wins. I want _both_ teams to lose.


> Again, Morny, if you believe NO God or gods exist, why do you care so much?

Let me expand on what I already answered to that question in your earlier post.

Many (most?! all?!) of the world's problems are because groups reach irreconcilable differences. I want to know how communication machinery breaks down. Poor discernment skills? Disrespect for their adversary? Unrecognized personal biases? ...

Working toward the answers has been incredibly fun, but has taken longer than I thought, when I started as a 12 year old boy.

Mathematicians and scientists don't have the persistent irreconcilable differences that religions have.
Separate "Christian" and "Islamic" branches for each of mathematics and science don't exist. Why is that?

Mathematicians use rigorous reasoning rules for proofs:
"Hey Morny, you begged-the-question on step 5 of your proof."
Morny:
"Dagnabbit, my mistake! You're correct!"

Scientists use the Scientific Method for claims:
Evidence and experimental results must agree with the hypothesis's predictions.

During a total solar eclipse, astronomers should be able to see, near the sun's rim, stars displaced a bit from their normal position. Way to go Einstein!

In evolution, the tree of life derived from modern genomic analysis should agree with the tree of life derived from Darwin's morphologic analysis. Way to go Darwin!


> [God] has perfect knowledge and understandings beyond our comprehension

So? I still haven't heard an answer why a _LOVING_ God dooms legions of _sincere_ Jews, Muslims, and atheists. Something like "They should have known better than to reject Jesus is God", isn't an answer, and is an insult to their intelligence and sincerity.

The "loving" omnipotent God knew, _before_ creating anything, what everyone was going to do and think. So why bother actually dealing the cards to play out a pointless, thousands of years-long, Earth-wide game of "Do You Believe In Me?", while already knowing that Morny along with legions of _sincere_ Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc., would not accept the game's rule that "Jesus is God"?

The answer is that a "loving" God would _NOT_ do that to Morny, et al.. If instead, Christianity had just said out loud that God is a vengeful and perverse God, my above argument wouldn't apply, and then Morny, et al., would have a huuuuge problem.

[Morny]

Response to Fliegender:

> Tough luck for you if you can’t accept God not rewarding sincerity.

You are confused. I can accept God not rewarding sincerity.

I cannot accept the self-contradiction of an ALL-LOVING God for eternity grotesquely punishing sincerity. The question is: How can anyone?!

[Morny]

Response to abelcainsbrother:

> Morny.You do realize that by you choosing atheism there is no basis for what is right or wrong for you.

Hilarious.

Ever hear about "The Golden Rule"? And before you mistakenly make the knee-jerk claim that the rule originates via Matthew 7:12, note that the idea appeared centuries before Christ, and almost certainly even waaaaay before that. Incredibly, even chimps exhibit behavior based on "The Golden Rule"! (And we're all only half a chromosome away from a chimp. Be careful though, if you tell a chimp that, he'll be insulted.)

[Fliegender]

Response to Fliegender:

> Tough luck for you if you can’t accept God not rewarding sincerity.

You are confused. I can accept God not rewarding sincerity.

I cannot accept the self-contradiction of an ALL-LOVING God for eternity grotesquely punishing sincerity. The question is: How can anyone?!

Do you have trouble understanding what is clearly written? Nowhere does it say God rewards sincerity. Nowhere.

So if an unbeliever sincerely believes whatever, that unbeliever has chosen to disbelieve God. God doesn’t send him to hell. The unbeliever has chosen to be apart from God...with sincerity!

You send yourself to hell.