The Quadruplet Quandary

[Philip]

Nowhere does it say God rewards sincerity. Nowhere.

So if an unbeliever sincerely believes whatever, that unbeliever has chosen to disbelieve God. God doesn’t send him to hell. The unbeliever has chosen to be apart from God...with sincerity!

You send yourself to hell.

Absolutely! People are given but two choices: Glory, beauty and bliss with their Creator FOREVER. OR, eternal separation and punishment. The Bible teaches those going to punishment will receive it justly and fairly meted out, and ONLY per each individual's actual sins. Now, there are different theological views of the punishment - some believe each person is punished to the number and degree of all of their sins and then, once punished, are exterminated from existence / burned up. Others believe the punishment will be eternal, as would be those separated from God will also continue to reject or hate God - and eternal sin with an eternal consequence. There are certainly metaphors about Hell, but whatever the reality, it will be a terrible one. Theologians have differing understandings of this. But either way, Hell is a hideous and avoidable fate, when instead, God offers them joy, bliss and peace with Him FOREVER. But God does NOT force Himself upon them. So, because God is just, He also much punish accordingly and fairly. And afterward, whether those judged guilty and sent to Hell cease to exist or are punished eternally, they will forever be separated from the joy they COULD have had, but rejected, per the only two choices / fates He provides all.

[Fliegender]

Absolutely! People are given but two choices: Glory, beauty and bliss with their Creator FOREVER. OR, eternal separation and punishment. The Bible teaches those going to punishment will receive it justly and fairly meted out, and ONLY per each individual's actual sins. Now, there are different theological views of the punishment - some believe each person is punished to the number and degree of all of their sins and then, once punished, are exterminated from existence / burned up. Others believe the punishment will be eternal, as would be those separated from God will also continue to reject or hate God - and eternal sin with an eternal consequence. There are certainly metaphors about Hell, but whatever the reality, it will be a terrible one. Theologians have differing understandings of this. But either way, Hell is a hideous and avoidable fate, when instead, God offers them joy, bliss and peace with Him FOREVER. But God does NOT force Himself upon them. So, because God is just, He also much punish accordingly and fairly. And afterward, whether those judged guilty and sent to Hell cease to exist or are punished eternally, they will forever be separated from the joy they COULD have had, but rejected, per the only two choices / fates He provides all.

Well said!

There is no “quadruplet quandary”. If they don’t recognize Christ as Lord, they’re all destined for a place where God isn’t, including the fourth quad we never heard about but might be a Mormon or Jehovah’s Witness...(two super sincere religions!)

[Philip]

Well said!

There is no “quadruplet quandary”. If they don’t recognize Christ as Lord, they’re all destined for a place where God isn’t, including the fourth quad we never heard about but might be a Mormon or Jehovah’s Witness...(two super sincere religions!)

[Morny]

Morny wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 6:20 pm

Response to Philip, Fliegender, et. al.:

> People are given but two choices: Glory, beauty and bliss with their Creator
> FOREVER. OR, eternal separation and punishment.

Jews and Muslims _DO_ sincerely choose "Glory, beauty and bliss with their Creator FOREVER." Ask them!!! Have you asked them?!! What did they say?

> So if an unbeliever sincerely believes whatever, that unbeliever has chosen
> to disbelieve God. God doesn’t send him to hell. The unbeliever has chosen
> to be apart from God [...]

Patently absurd. Jews and Muslims consider you as much an "unbeliever", as you consider them. Does that make you chose to be apart from God? Of course not - you all believe in mutually exclusive Gods. But you don't give Jews and Muslims and Morny the same benefit of the doubt.

What happens when a Jew/Muslim/Morny "wakes up" in Christian hell? How did your Jewish/Muslim friends respond to that hypothetical question? I would shamefully, immediately, and truthfully admit that my Earthly deductions were incorrect. I would also immediately CHOOSE to believe that Jesus is Lord and want to be with God. And my admissions would be independent of wanting to avoid punishment. Would those admissions make any difference to God? Hell no, according to you. Not a good look for your all-loving God.

Now, put the shoe on the other foot. What happens when _YOU_ "wake up" sitting next to me on a flaming bench in Islamic hell? Did you choose to disbelieve God? YES! Did you choose to be apart from God? YES! Then when Morny asks you if you still believe that God is all-loving, your answer will be: "Hell no." Well, well, at least we finally agree on something.

[Fliegender]

Response to Philip, Fliegender, et. al.:

> People are given but two choices: Glory, beauty and bliss with their Creator
> FOREVER. OR, eternal separation and punishment.

Jews and Muslims _DO_ sincerely choose "Glory, beauty and bliss with their Creator FOREVER." Ask them!!! Have you asked them?!! What did they say?

> So if an unbeliever sincerely believes whatever, that unbeliever has chosen
> to disbelieve God. God doesn’t send him to hell. The unbeliever has chosen
> to be apart from God [...]

Patently absurd. Jews and Muslims consider you as much an "unbeliever", as you consider them. Does that make you chose to be apart from God? Of course not - you all believe in mutually exclusive Gods. But you don't give Jews and Muslims and Morny the same benefit of the doubt.

What happens when a Jew/Muslim/Morny "wakes up" in Christian hell? How did your Jewish/Muslim friends respond to that hypothetical question? I would shamefully, immediately, and truthfully admit that my Earthly deductions were incorrect. I would also immediately CHOOSE to believe that Jesus is Lord and want to be with God. And my admissions would be independent of wanting to avoid punishment. Would those admissions make any difference to God? Hell no, according to you. Not a good look for your all-loving God.

Now, put the shoe on the other foot. What happens when _YOU_ "wake up" sitting next to me on a flaming bench in Islamic hell? Did you choose to disbelieve God? YES! Did you choose to be apart from God? YES! Then when Morny asks you if you still believe that God is all-loving, your answer will be: "Hell no." Well, well, at least we finally agree on something.

Everything we wrote went right over your head! I'll add that you don't understand Islamic or Jewish concepts of the afterlife so that's why you make an affirmation like, "Jews and Muslims DO sincerely choose 'Glory, beauty and bliss with their Creator FOREVER' ''. Your affirmation shines a big spotlight on your very Christian heritage! Jews have no concept of heaven as a place of eternal bliss with God. Heaven is the abode of God for Jews, period. There is NO DOCTRINE OF HEAVEN AND HELL IN JUDAISM. Got that? As for Islam, most non-Muslims have heard of the 72 buxom, sex-starved virgins promised to Muslims who die a martyr's death... That's Islamic paradise for a select minority; most righteous Muslims don't get that but they do get a nice condo in Jannah - Islamic paradise - based on their good deeds while on Earth. Muslimas - women - get a worse deal: most of them go to Jahannam - a place of darkness. Allah doesn't stoop to being with his created beings so he's nowhere to be seen in Jahannam or Jannah. (What Muslim wants the Boss around when he's banging 72 virgins anyway?)

Neither a Jew nor a Muslim yearns to be with God as you imply.

[Philip]

Morny, God tells us in Scripture there is but ONE way to Heaven - and that is through faith in Jesus Christ! This means ALL other roads to Heaven do not exist. Which also means that choosing a Hindu, Islamic, Taoist, JW, Mormon god, etc, atheism / agnosticism is ALL the same - as they are ALL a rejection of the TRUE God as well as choosing a road to Heaven that does not exist - regardless of which other besides Jesus they so choose. And while these people could cry out to the real God to communicate with Him, they fail to - AND they latch onto a false nonexistent road as well. And if that never changes for them, then they will die guilt of sins and punished.

Now, there are some possibilities we cannot know for certain, as to how God has dealt with those who fail to ever embrace the true God / Jesus. One is, those without knowledge of God / Jesus / the Gospel may not have been provided it or put in proximity to the Gospel because God knew it would never do them any good whatsoever. Many saw Jesus do fantastic miracles and good, and yet they still wouldn't accept Him / rejected Him. Scripture teaches, per the Apostle Paul, that God places ALL persons in their unique places in time, location, history, culture, family, etc - SO they might (if they so desire to) seek and find God. And because God is intimately ALL-knowing of ALL hearts and minds before they are even born, He foreknew who would eventually be receptive to and embrace Him as well as all who NEVER would. So, has ALWAYS which persons, no matter what their opportunities to seek God or exposure to the Gospel and knowledge of Jesus would otherwise be, IT WOULD DO THEM NO GOOD - because God knew their hearts and minds would only permanently be hostile to Him and ultimately end up in their rejecting Him. And yet, God is unlimited in how He decides to reach people unfamiliar with the Gospel and Christ - missionaries have countless stories of how unreached people became connected and exposed to the Gospel, and thus saved. Assuming that God has abandoned people in time and culture and kept them from knowledge that could save them, is nothing but an arrogant assumption.

There are other possibilities how and why God has dealt with those yet to hear the Gospel - OR that yet WILL hear it and eventually be saved. Here is a thoughtful consideration of some of those POSSIBILITIES - none of which the Bible clearly reveals (although there are theological threads that MIGHT line up with a few of them: https://www.wholereason.com/2013/05/the ... heard.html

Now, Morny, here is a WARNING for you! As long as you are here to listen, learn, respectfully share ideas, etc, that is fine. And no, you don't have to agree with whatever Biblical truths you find here. But if you persist in criticizing or attempting to sow doubt on or attacking God / Christ / Christianity / the Bible - then, you will be banned (temporarily IF you persist - and beyond that - PERMANENTLY). You are a guest here on a site dedicated to spreading faith in Christ. If you are against or don't believe in our mission here, you have endless places across the net you can camp out on and argue to your heart's content. But you won't continue to do it here! I've yet to understand - and have asked multiple times - why you are obsessed with debunking Christ and Christianity if you don't even believe the God of the Bible exists? And for years! Why? If you heed this warning, you will be fine - but please adhere to it.

Philip

[Morny]

Philip, I'm not sure why my main very simple question continues to be misunderstood or unanswered in a simple way. Please let me try in a different way.

Assume a young person, named Abdullah, was brought up in a devout Islamic religious environment. In his comparative religious studies, he learned the essential tenets of Christianity, along with other world religions. He's a very curious person, and sees that you are hosting an "Introduction to Christianity" meeting, so he comes prepared with these basic questions:

1. Is God really all-loving, e.g., including me, a devout Muslim?
2. Is accepting Jesus as God required?
3. If on the way to this meeting, a car had hit and
killed me, might I have gone to hell for eternity?

Assuming your answer is "Yes" for questions #1 and #2, and Abdullah
(obviously) hasn't accepted Jesus as God, how do you answer Abdullah's
question #3?

[Philip]

Philip, I'm not sure why my main very simple question continues to be misunderstood or unanswered in a simple way. Please let me try in a different way.

Assume a young person, named Abdullah, was brought up in a devout Islamic religious environment. In his comparative religious studies, he learned the essential tenets of Christianity, along with other world religions. He's a very curious person, and sees that you are hosting an "Introduction to Christianity" meeting, so he comes prepared with these basic questions:

1. Is God really all-loving, e.g., including me, a devout Muslim?
2. Is accepting Jesus as God required?
3. If on the way to this meeting, a car had hit and
killed me, might I have gone to hell for eternity?

Assuming your answer is "Yes" for questions #1 and #2, and Abdullah
(obviously) hasn't accepted Jesus as God, how do you answer Abdullah's
question #3?

God IS ALL-loving, whether we correctly perceive it or not. The Muslim FREELY chooses Islam just as an atheist is free to choose to reject the true God, whatever god(s), or follow whatever faith. That Muslim COULD seek the true God and sincerely desire to know Him, attempt to communicate with Him or not. He could take a hard look at the Biblical, prophetic, scientific, historical, and philosophical evidence to A) conclude there MUST be a Creator and B) he could take a hard look at whether whatever religions do or do not line up with the evidences, or C) he can just continue to delude and convince himself there is no God whatsoever - which is precisely the same thing as rejecting God!

But no matter the faith affiliation or no faith or whatever person, we don't get to Heaven or access God on OUR terms, but on HIS! And on GOD'S terms to reach and know Him, ALL are free, indeed desired by God, to do so. And He has promised to reveal Himself to ALL who WILL do so. If people are searching for evidences in a desire to discover God, He will give them what they truly NEED to believe, but not ALL they DEMAND - as He knows the difference between these. People have differing issues that block or self-block their ability to believe - and God knows what they are. He will give each enough understandings to either move closer to Him or further away - it's their choice to respond to whatever He shows them - or NOT.

We also can't connect with the true God by seeking out false channels / religions / or even no faith at all, in a self-chosen attempt to do so. Again, HE has set His terms per how ALL people CAN sincerely seek Him. And He perfectly and intimately understands the hearts and minds of those who are merely FEIGNING sincerity and (have NO) desire to know Him - as opposed to those who TRULY want to know the truth about Him - and thus He responds accordingly per His perfect knowledge and understanding of them.

Yes, ALL must first confess Jesus and commit to Him to be saved. And there are many people have remained unsaved - even those who knew or know nothing about Jesus! The Old Testament has many examples of those who went to Hell without yet having the later-given directive or knowledge that they must embrace Jesus to be saved. Because God / Jesus / the Holy Spirit are EACH co-Equals and FULLY God, to reject ANY Person of God's Trinity is to reject God as He truly is and exists. People assume that if people only had more knowledge about Jesus and the Cross, then they would embrace Him. Again, the Bible says before time, God has ALWAYS known ALL who would benefit from knowing about Jesus and the Gospel, as well as also forever known ALL those who, no matter what knowledge of Himself He would ever provide them - including knowledge about Jesus and the Gospel - would reject Him anyway. It could well be the reason some never hear of Jesus is because God, perfectly knowing all hearts and minds across time, foreknew that knowledge of the Son / Christ would only be a further understanding of Himself that would be rejected as well - and thus He put such people in time and place where they wouldn't hear the Gospel / about Jesus (as it would be useless to them). In fact, some people who God knew would only permanently reject Him - especially those bent upon great evils to others - might well have been placed in remote places because God, in His mercy, also desired to protect peaceful people and societies (and not just Christians). So, God's perfect foreknowledge of the hearts and minds of those He always knew would only eternally reject Him (know matter what He showed them), could well be why He has withheld the Gospel from them!

The Bible also teaches that those who had faith in the true God BEFORE Jesus' ministry, were deemed righteous by Him for putting their faith in God as per what He had revealed to them about Himself up until that point in time - and before they ever knew about Jesus, and as God knew when He would later reveal to such saved persons about Jesus after their mortal deaths. Those saved before Jesus ministry WERE accepting and committing themselves to God AND to Jesus (ALSO fully God!) - it's just that God had not yet fully revealed Himself per what Christians came to know about Jesus and the Holy Spirit, along with the Father, with each inhabiting what the ONE God is (He is a Trinity of THREE Persons making up the ONE God). But the Bible says, POST Jesus ministry, ALL must accept Jesus to be saved, and for those who seek Him / won't permanently resist Him, God has a plan to reveal Jesus and the Gospel to them, so they WILL be saved at some point in time - whether we understand the hows and whens of His plan or not.

AGAIN, Morny, why do you care about teachings about a God you reject and deny? Why are you obsessed with Him and Christianity? Again, I believe you are trying exceptionally hard to convince YOURSELF as much as others.

[Morny]

Philip:

Your 4 long paragraph response here is how you would answer Abdullah's question #3?


> AGAIN, Morny, why do you care about teachings about a God you reject and
> deny? Why are you obsessed with Him and Christianity?

Perhaps you could follow-up with a specific question about something already in my previous 2 responses to your question here?

[Philip]

Philip:

Your 4 long paragraph response here is how you would answer Abdullah's question #3?


> AGAIN, Morny, why do you care about teachings about a God you reject and
> deny? Why are you obsessed with Him and Christianity?

Perhaps you could follow-up with a specific question about something already in my previous 2 responses to your question here?

I've given plenty in the posts above for one trying to understand how one dying without confessing Jesus will remain unsaved - which means exactly as noted - eternal separation from God and punishment specific to their sins. Theologically, there is some reasonable debate over whether the unsaved are punished and then cease to exist, or perhaps are punished forever. I explained how one COULD know Jesus, no matter where in the world they live, no matter how remote, no matter what religions surround them. No one is forced believe ANY religious teachings - just a Morny has FREELY chosen his atheism. I explained some possible reasons as to why many may never be exposed to the Gospel or Jesus, per what God foreknew about the certainty of their rejection, even before they were born. No, one does NOT need to know about Jesus to reject God - I made that clear. Yes, EVERYONE must confess Jesus before they die - as He is the ONLY way to salvation - here are plenty of verses stating this: https://www.livingchristian.org/bible-v ... h2PsNBBARc

God desires EVERYONE to be saved:

This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:4)

God wants EVERYONE to choose Him / Jesus as opposed to rejecting Him (thus choosing eternity without God and great punishment):

The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)

God takes no pleasure in those dying unsaved: Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord God, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live? (Ezekiel 18:23)

Morny, you have been given more than enough from a Biblical perspective - you can either believe it or reject it. It is pointless for you to keep going over the same ground, year after year.