Catholics and evolution

Fortigurn · Post by **Fortigurn** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 8:56 am

Yehren, I've just spent a lot of time reading through this thread. I would like you to clarify in summary exactly how you believe evolution is compatible with the Genesis account of creation, and the creation co-texts.

I have noted your use of Genesis 1:25, but do not yet find it convincing. If you could provide a case which involved more than one verse of Scripture, that would be helpful.

My primary concern at this point is the lack of Scripture in your argument.

Jbuza · Post by **Jbuza** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:17 am

I am not too sure, but there seems to eb an entity wihtin the posts that keeps refering to what yehren has said, so I wonder what they are trying to do here.

Yehren · Post by **Yehren** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:43 am

I need to see some amazingly good evidence to prove that 'the Pope is a good authority on Christian belief'.

Most of the world's Christians acknowledge him as their spiritual leader. It would be rather odd if he wasn't.

Fortigurn · Post by **Fortigurn** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:45 am

Yehren wrote:
I need to see some amazingly good evidence to prove that 'the Pope is a good authority on Christian belief'.
Most of the world's Christians acknowledge him as their spiritual leader.

And?

It would be rather odd if he wasn't.

Why?

My request for evidence stands, by the way.

Yehren · Post by **Yehren** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:46 am

Yehren, I've just spent a lot of time reading through this thread. I would like you to clarify in summary exactly how you believe evolution is compatible with the Genesis account of creation, and the creation co-texts.

Because nothing in Genesis denies evolution, it's the only conclusion that is possible.

I have noted your use of Genesis 1:25, but do not yet find it convincing.

Not everyone accepts all of the Bible. I do. Hence, it is convincing to me.

If you could provide a case which involved more than one verse of Scripture, that would be helpful.

Can you think of even one verse that denies evolution?

My primary concern at this point is the lack of Scripture in your argument.

I cited scripture in my argument. I note that you have not.

Yehren · Post by **Yehren** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:48 am

I need to see some amazingly good evidence to prove that 'the Pope is a good authority on Christian belief'.

Yehren observes:
Most of the world's Christians acknowledge him as their spiritual leader.

And?

Christians are, after all, the final authority on what Christians believe.

Yehren observes:
It would be rather odd if he wasn't.

Why?

See above.

My request for evidence stands, by the way.

See above. If you won't accept from Christians themselves, what they believe, I doubt if any other evidence would sway you.

Fortigurn · Post by **Fortigurn** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:57 am

Yehren wrote:
Yehren, I've just spent a lot of time reading through this thread. I would like you to clarify in summary exactly how you believe evolution is compatible with the Genesis account of creation, and the creation co-texts.
Because nothing in Genesis denies evolution, it's the only conclusion that is possible.

That's rather a passive response. I would appreciate more detail please.

I have noted your use of Genesis 1:25, but do not yet find it convincing.
Not everyone accepts all of the Bible. I do. Hence, it is convincing to me.

I also accept the Bible. That's precisely why I want to see a lot more of it in your posts, if that's ok.

If you could provide a case which involved more than one verse of Scripture, that would be helpful.
Can you think of even one verse that denies evolution?

I'm asking you to articulate your case so that I understand you properly. I'm not actually presenting case against evolution (at this point).

My primary concern at this point is the lack of Scripture in your argument.
I cited scripture in my argument. I note that you have not.

I took note of the Scripture you quoted (see my post). At present I am not making an argument from Scripture, so I have no need to cite Scripture. What I am doing is requesting from you an articulation of your case, including all the creation texts and co-texts which you deem relevant and which you believe positively support your case.

Having said which, this passage of Scripture does seem relevant at this point:

1 Peter 3:
15 But set Christ apart as Lord in your hearts and always be ready to give an answer to anyone who asks about the hope you possess.

bizzt · Post by **bizzt** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:01 am

Can you think of even one verse that denies evolution?

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. Gen 1:27 And God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Gen 2:7 And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Now tell me something!

1. God Created Man in his Image. Is God's Image Distorted? Is God's Image an Ape Like Creature as Evolution Supposes?

2. If God Created Man out of the Dust of the Ground how does Evolution account for this?

Thanks in Advance

Fortigurn · Post by **Fortigurn** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:02 am

Yehren wrote:
I need to see some amazingly good evidence to prove that 'the Pope is a good authority on Christian belief'.
Yehren observes:
Most of the world's Christians acknowledge him as their spiritual leader.

I'm afraid this does not constitute evidence that 'the Pope is a good authority on Christian belief'.

Did you have anything else in mind?

Christians are, after all, the final authority on what Christians believe.

That is not the issue under discussion. The issue under discussion is whether 'the Pope is a good authority on Christian belief'.

I am not aware that Christians are the final authority on whether or not 'the Pope is a good authority on Christian belief'. The very position the pope claims to hold does in fact explicitly declare the opposite - that the pope is the final authority on what Christians believe.

f you won't accept from Christians themselves, what they believe, I doubt if any other evidence would sway you.

The issue under discussion here is not 'Christians themselves, what they believe', but whether 'the Pope is a good authority on Christian belief'.

To date, you have provided no evidence that 'the Pope is a good authority on Christian belief'. I believe it's a legitimate request, especially since your argument is resting on an appeal to his authority.

As you rightly say, your appeal to authority is not invalid if you are appealing to a legitimate authority. But having appealed to an authority, you bear the burden of demonstrating that this authority is legitimate.

I await the evidence.

Yehren · Post by **Yehren** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:03 am

I'm a bit puzzled. I mention that there is nothing in Scripture that contradicts evolution, and you ask me where.

Nowhere. There is nothing there that contradicts it. You might as well ask me to show you where in Scripture it doesn't contradict atoms.

Fortigurn · Post by **Fortigurn** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:04 am

Yehren wrote:I'm a bit puzzled. I mention that there is nothing in Scripture that contradicts evolution, and you ask me where.

Nowhere. There is nothing there that contradicts it. You might as well ask me to show you where in Scripture it doesn't contradict atoms.

I haven't asked you to show me anything which contradicts or doesn't contradict evolution.

What I am doing is requesting from you an articulation of your case, including all the creation texts and co-texts which you deem relevant and which you believe positively support your case.

Yehren · Post by **Yehren** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:21 am

Yehren observes:
I'm a bit puzzled. I mention that there is nothing in Scripture that contradicts evolution, and you ask me where.

Nowhere. There is nothing there that contradicts it. You might as well ask me to show you where in Scripture it doesn't contradict atoms.

I haven't asked you to show me anything which contradicts or doesn't contradict evolution.

What I am doing is requesting from you an articulation of your case, including all the creation texts and co-texts which you deem relevant and which you believe positively support your case.

I can't find any evidence in the Bible that supports electrons, superconductivity, nuclear fusion, evolution, enzymes, and much more.

But there's nothing therein that contradicts any of that, either. That was my argument. There's nothing that contradicts it.

Which is OK. The Bible is not a science text. It's about God and us, and our relationship.

Yehren · Post by **Yehren** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:27 am

Yehren asks:
Can you think of even one verse that denies evolution?

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

How are we in the image of God? Not in physical appearance. God has no need of eyes or fingers or legs. We are, as He mentions in Genesis, like Him in being moral beings, capable of understanding good and evil, and therefore potentially capable of fellowship with Him. A being brought forth from the earth like the other animals, but with an immortal soul directly give to him by God.

God does not look like a modified ape.

1. God Created Man in his Image. Is God's Image Distorted? Is God's Image an Ape Like Creature as Evolution Supposes?

Of course, evolution does not suppose that. God is not even a physical being, unless it pleases Him to take on such an attribute for us.

2. If God Created Man out of the Dust of the Ground how does Evolution account for this?

It doesn't. Abiogenesis is an entirely different theory. Man evolved from other beings, but all living creatures are from the Earth and our bodies will eventually return there.

But our bodies are not who we are.

Nor do they define our image in God.

Fortigurn · Post by **Fortigurn** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:21 pm

Yehren wrote:I can't find any evidence in the Bible that supports electrons, superconductivity, nuclear fusion, evolution, enzymes, and much more.

But there's nothing therein that contradicts any of that, either. That was my argument. There's nothing that contradicts it.

Which is OK. The Bible is not a science text. It's about God and us, and our relationship.

Thanks for making your position a little more clear. You see, in one of your earlier posts you cited Genesis 1:25 as evidence that God did in fact use a process suggestive of evolution. I was wondering if you really had any positive evidence from Scripture for your case.

So to summarise:

You advance no positive evidence from Scripture for your case, and acknowledge that none exists
You believe that evolution is not incompatible with Scripture
You believe that we determine the fact of evolution from science alone

This helps. More later.

Fortigurn · Post by **Fortigurn** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:22 pm

Yehren wrote:Yehren asks:
Can you think of even one verse that denies evolution?

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
How are we in the image of God? Not in physical appearance. God has no need of eyes or fingers or legs. We are, as He mentions in Genesis, like Him in being moral beings, capable of understanding good and evil, and therefore potentially capable of fellowship with Him. A being brought forth from the earth like the other animals, but with an immortal soul directly give to him by God.

I suggest you do a search on the Hebrew words here translated 'image' and 'likeness' in Scripture.

Come back to me with the results.