The Sabbath

[R7-12]

Hi Jbuza,

I can understand how my position may appear confusing. I believe that the Law was given to show man that his fallen state was incapable of direct fellowship with God.

The law of God is in fact a legal system that was given in part before Adam and Eve committed sin. Up to that point the only instruction of the law given to man that we are told of was the commandment, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; “but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat,” (Gen. 2:16-17a, NKJV). Knowledge of the consequence associated with breaking this commandment immediately followed, “for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” (17b).

The administrative aspect of God's legal system was put in effect after they broke the law. This administration of law has a different function than the injunctions or commandments in the law.

Then to Adam He said, “Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat of it': “Cursed is the ground for your sake; In toil you shall eat of it All the days of your life. 18Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you, And you shall eat the herb of the field. 19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return.” (Gen. 3:17-19).

Interestingly enough, the same system of law including commandments, principles, consequences and administration was given to Israel following the exodus,

“But it shall come to pass, if you do not obey the voice of the LORD your God, to observe carefully all His commandments and His statutes which I command you today, that all these curses will come upon you and overtake you: 16“Cursed shall you be in the city, and cursed shall you be in the country. 17“Cursed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl. 18“Cursed shall be the fruit of your body and the produce of your land, the increase of your cattle and the offspring of your flocks. 19“Cursed shall you be when you come in, and cursed shall you be when you go out (Deut. 28:15-19).

The law was given to govern man through practicing good and right and just commandments for the preservation of life and continual growth in the knowledge of God through progressive and perpetual obedience. The law reflects the love of God and teaches us how to love Him and our fellowman (Rom. 13:8, 10, Gal. 5:14, 1 Tim. 1:5, James 2:8, Deut. 6:4-5, Lev. 19:18 ).

After Adam and Eve broke the commandment, the administrative aspect of the law was put into affect and the means for physical atonement (the redeeming aspect of the law) was given in the form of sacrificial ordinances (Gen. 4:3-4).

The commandments in the law are that part of God's legal system that provides the knowledge of what constitutes sin (1 John 3:4, Rom. 7:7). We are therefore commanded to abstain from sin by living in accordance with the commandments and law of God — “go and sin no more”.

I believe that those who follow the Law come to know that they are sinful and are forced to fall on the mercies of a great God.

I would agree. The spirit of God guides those who obey God to apply the spiritual principles in every aspect of their lives. When we err, that is, break the commandments, we repent before Almighty God, asking that Christ's blood cover our lawless deeds, and commit to turning away from sin (lawbreaking) through obedience to God's word.

I believe that God came to man to fulfill the Law and gain acceptance and fellowship with God as a Man.

The Bible says the son of God came not to destroy the law but to fulfill its requirement (Matt. 5:17). What the law requires of those who break it is their life (Gen. 2:17; Ez. 18:4, 20; Rom. 1:32, 5:10, 6:21, 23). If we pay for our sins with our own life we will die and remain dead. This is why the animal sacrifices were first given to point to the need for the Messiah, and it is for this reason that Christ died for us — so that those who are justified by faith according to the judgment of God, are given life by grace and raised from the dead by the power of God at the resurrection.

Jesus Christ was able to keep the Law, and offers to pay my penalty before the Law.

I agree. Thus it would be arrogant, rebellious and spiteful to wilfully live contrary to the express commandments of God, which is sin. It would also negate forgiveness and therefore everlasting life, for no sacrifice remains for those who, after receiving the knowledge of the truth, choose to break the law of God, committing sin (Heb. 10:26).

Jesus Christ has assured for me adoption through faith and covers my inability to keep the Law.

There are no Bible texts that say Christ covers anyone's inability to keep the law. Christ in fact commands that our Father's commands be obeyed, for where there is no obedience there is no faith, and where faith is absent, salvation is not present (Matt. 19:17b, John 14:15; 15:10, Eph. 2:8, James 2:14, 17, 20, 22, 24, 26).

What is their for me to follow the Law now?

if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments (Matt. 19:17b, NKJV)

If one does not submit to God's Law/Word, they will not receive life.

For the commandment is a lamp, And the law a light; Reproofs of instruction are the way of life (Prov. 6:23, NKJV)

The law of the wise is a fountain of life, To turn one away from the snares of death (Prov. 13:14, NKJV)

We must live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God (Matt. 4:4). The law and commandments are a major aspect of His word and plan of salvation and cannot be ignored.

I have demonstrated numerous times my inability to keep the law, and know from scripture that I cannot please God through the Law.

We are all incapable of keeping the law — on our own. We require the spirit of God. Otherwise we will not subject ourselves to God's will in obedience to His law and commandments. However, with God's spirit we can become subject to His Law/Word and do what he says is pleasing in His eyes. Doing the will of God is what is pleasing to Him.

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God (Rom. 8:7-8 ).

…the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him (Acts 5:32b).

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us (I John 3:24).

Those who are in the flesh cannot subject their minds to the law of God and hence are incapable of pleasing Him.

IS there a crown for my law keeping abilities? If there were such a crown it would be singular and be sitting on the head of Jesus Christ.

Obedience to God is not about earning anything and never was. It is about doing what He commands because we love Him and trust Him.

Do I please God or lay up treasure by not murdering? I see nothing for me,

Then why not commit murder? Or steal, or lie, worship idols, break the Sabbath, not honour your parents, commit adultery, use God's name vainly, covet others' possessions, or place other gods before the true God? If observing these holds nothing for you, then committing them cannot be wrong in your eyes either.

The law is not there to serve you* but for you to serve God through the law.

*The law is beneficial to us and we are served through the blessings god offers to those who obey, but there is one aspect by which we are all blessed, that is the atonement made possible within the law through Christ's offering. This however serves God's purpose first and foremost.

I am guilty of the whole law except by the cleansing of the Blood.

I agree and I am also guilty of having broken the whole law many time. But if we continue to live sinfully, there is no cleansing by the blood of Christ as mentioned earlier.

[R7-12]

What does Jesus teach? What did the Spirit direct his apostles to say about the Law?

Correctly understanding what Christ and the apostles had to say about the law, especially the apostle Paul, also requires the spirit of truth which is the spirit of Christ given to him by God. Without the knowledge and direction of God through His spirit, the human mind is enmity against God and not subject to His law, nor can it be (Rom. 8:7-8 ).

I am convinced that I am now a son adopted from the curse of the Law to flesh, and now my duty is to honor God and Love my neighbor.

How do we love and honour God? How do we love our neighbour?

I don't seek to restrict my action based on wether anything is legal or not, that is not what Governs my behavior.

If one does not restrict their behaviour by the law then they will inevitably break it. Romans 8:7-8 speaks directly to your statement.

Sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). The wages of sin is death (Rom. 6:23).

For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me (Rom. 7:11, NKJV).

For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God (Gal. 3:19, NKJV).

Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life (Rom. 6:3-4, NKJV).

For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit (Rom. 8:3-4, NKJV)

Salvation is a legal process whether we like to admit that or not.

I am sorry to say that often my behavior is governed by my own desires, but I know that When my works are tested by the Fire nothing will survive that is simply the keeping of the Law.

On the contrary. The spirit that is placed in us at baptism grows as we grow in knowledge, grace, and faith, according to our application of trust towards God with our entire lives. This we do when we voluntarily choose to live according to all of God's word, no matter what the cost, and the law is certainly central to His word. This spirit which develops by applying God's divine principles is what will survive the fire of purification.

Should I be rewarded at all for the things that I have done that are merely my duty?

“Does he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I think not. 10“So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, 'We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.' ” (Luke 17:9)

There is no profit or reward for doing what is our duty. Not even a “thank you.” But we are given life everlasting by grace as a gift from God and in turn He requires obedience to His will in faith - trusting Him (Matt. 19:17).

I can fulfill my duty 99% of the time, and show no lasting honor to God or Love for a neighbor. Must I Love my neighbor to Not murder him, or not steal his things? Must I honor God by the mere avoidance of Idols, and hour of church time?

Well the church part is not about spending time in a place considered 'religious.' But that's a whole other matter. However, to the rest of your question the answer is yes. The beginning of learning to love God and your fellowman is found in not doing that which is wrong. From here we grow towards the weightier matters of the law — justice, mercy and faith (Matt. 23:23).

Not to even mention the clear teaching of Freedom from the Law of sin,…

Our freedom from the Law of sin continues only so long as we abstain from sin. If we go back to, or continue in sin, we are slaves to sin in bondage.

the motivation for a reward makes the keeping of the Law less important than the Honoring of God, or the Loving of my fellow man.

As I mentioned above, when we as servants of God do that which is our duty (keep the commandments), we do not receive any reward, not even a thank you. The motivation to be obedient to God should be one of willing submission and love.

Should I say well it is the Sabbath (not that anyone knows the Date of creation to base the actually week day on) I better get to church because I am required to by the Law?

The seven-day week was instituted by God at creation and has continued unchanged since then. Your response seems to indicate that you aren't willing to obey the law of God anyway, even though we are all commanded to. I know the Sabbath commandment doesn't make sense to a lot of people but the Sabbath is not about going to a building one day a week because it's the 'religious' thing to do', It's about honouring and worshipping Almighty God on His terms.

“For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” says the LORD. 9“For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts (Isaiah 55:8-9, NKJV).

You shall walk after the LORD your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice, and you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him (Deut. 13:4, NKJV).

Does God change? Does His voice change? (Mal. 3:6). Does God lie about how we are to live and conduct ourselves? (Num. 23:19).

If I do it is simply my duty. If I honor God some way before man I shall be rewarded for it. So I ask which is the better?

Our duty is to serve God and worship Him in spirit and truth (John 4:23-24).

Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 24because “All flesh is as grass, And all the glory of man as the flower of the grass. The grass withers, And its flower falls away, 25But the word of the LORD endures forever.” Now this is the word which by the gospel was preached to you (1 Peter 1:22-25, NKJV).

The meaning of life, and life itself, is found when we trust and serve God with all our heart, mind, life and strength. His law teaches us to trust, serve and worship Him and the Holy Spirit makes it possible, for without the power of God, we can do nothing.

I hope you find this is helpful,
R7-12

[Jbuza]

gone

[R7-12]

Jbuza,

You wrote,

I do not need the Law to do the things that are in it. I cannot keep the LAw so I do not Keep the Law, but I seek to do what I feel is right as best as I can before God

This response dismisses all the points and texts given in my last post without responding to even one of them.

Let's examine you're position.

I do not need the Law to do the things that are in it.

Then God made a mistake by having the law written in Scripture if it comes naturally to all men.

I cannot keep the LAw so I do not Keep the Law,

Neither can you see God. Why then do you follow Him?
But wait a minute… first you claim to not require the law of God to do the things that are contained in the law. Then you declare that you do not keep the law. ???

In one of your earlier posts you stated,

I want to point out that I believe that I do keep the law in large part. I know that I fail to at times, and that the Grace of our Lord is great.

So which is it? Do you, or do you want to keep the law or not? Will the real Jbuza please stand up!

I am not arguing that the Law isn't good or that there is something wrong with trying to adhere to it.

No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments (Matt. 19:17b, NKJV).

You said the law is good, what is it good for?

but I seek to do what I feel is right as best as I can before God.

Ahh… I see. Now I understand where you're coming from. The form of religion you follow consists of doing what YOU feel is right in your own eyes.

That's too bad. The Bible says,

The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, But he who heeds counsel is wise (Prov. 12:15, NKJV)

There is a way that seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death (Prov. 14:12, NKJV).

Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, But the LORD weighs the hearts. 3To do righteousness and justice Is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice (Prov. 21:2-3, NKJV).

The sacrifice that Christ was willing to make in obedience to His Father was necessary because the law of God was broken requiring the payment of life through the shedding of blood. Had Adam and Eve (and Satan previous to that) not broken the law of God, or anyone else following after them, but continued in doing righteousness and justice (the weightier matters of the law), the shedding of blood to pay for the law of sin and death would never have been necessary.

You told me,

I am very open to a discussion on the Law.

Are you? Would you like to continue?

R7-12

[Jbuza]

gone

[Jbuza]

Acts

15:4 When they arrived in Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they reported all the things God had done with them. 15:5 But some from the religious party of the Pharisees who had believed stood up and said, “It is necessary to circumcise the Gentiles and to order them to observe the law of Moses.”
15:6 Both the apostles and the elders met together to deliberate about this matter. 15:7 After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that some time ago God chose me to preach to the Gentiles so they would hear the message of the gospel and believe. 15:8 And God, who knows the heart, has testified to them by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, 15:9 and he made no distinction between them and us, cleansing their hearts by faith. 15:10 So now why are you putting God to the test by placing on the neck of the disciples a yoke that neither our ancestors nor we have been able to bear? 15:11 On the contrary, we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they are.”
15:12 The whole group kept quiet and listened to Barnabas and Paul while they explained all the miraculous signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them. 15:13 After they stopped speaking, James replied, “Brothers, listen to me. 15:14 Simeon has explained how God first concerned himself to select from among the Gentiles a people for his name. 15:15 The words of the prophets agree with this, as it is written,
15:16 'After this I will return,
and I will rebuild the fallen tent of David;
I will rebuild its ruins and restore it, 15:28 For it seemed best to the Holy Spirit and to us not to place any greater burden on you than these necessary rules: 15:29 that you abstain from meat that has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what has been strangled and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from doing these things, you will do well.

15:17 so that the rest of humanity may seek the Lord,
namely, all the Gentiles I have called to be my own,' says the Lord, who makes these things 15:18 known from long ago.
15:19 “Therefore I conclude that we should not cause extra difficulty for those among the Gentiles who are turning to God, 15:20 but that we should write them a letter telling them to abstain from things defiled by idols and from sexual immorality and from what has been strangled and from blood.



Romans

3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law
4:13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would inherit the world was not fulfilled through the law, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 4:14 For if they become heirs by the law, faith is empty and the promise is nullified. 4:15 For the law brings wrath, because where there is no law there is no transgression either. 4:16 For this reason it is by faith so that it may be by grace, with the result that the promise may be certain to all the descendants — not only to those who are under the law, but also to those who have the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all
7:4 So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you could be joined to another, to the one who was raised from the dead, to bear fruit to God. 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful desires, aroused by the law, were active in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. 7:6 But now we have been released from the law, because we have died to what controlled us, so that we may serve in the new life of the Spirit and not under the old written code.
9:30 What shall we say then? — that the Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness obtained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith, 9:31 but Israel even though pursuing a law of righteousness did not attain it. 9:32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but (as if it were possible) by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, 9:33 just as it is written,
10:4 For Christ is the end of the law, with the result that there is righteousness for everyone who believes.
13:10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

1 Corinthians

1:20 Where is the wise man? Where is the expert in the Mosaic law? Where is the debater of this age? Has God not made the wisdom of the world foolish? 1:21 For since in the wisdom of God the world by its wisdom did not know God, God was pleased to save those who believe by the foolishness of preaching.
: To the Jews I became like a Jew to gain the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law) to gain those under the law. 9:21 To those free from the law I became like one free from the law (though I am not free from God's law but under the law of Christ) to gain those free from the law.
10:23 “Everything is lawful,” but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is lawful,” but not everything builds others up. 10:24 Do not seek your own good, but the good of the other person. 10:25 Eat anything that is sold in the marketplace without questions of conscience, 10:26 for the earth and its abundance are the Lord's. 10:27 If an unbeliever invites you to dinner and you want to go, eat whatever is served without asking questions of conscience.

Galatians

3:10 For all who rely on doing the works of the law are under a curse, because it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not keep on doing everything written in the book of the law.” 3:11 Now it is clear no one is justified before God by the law, because the righteous one will live by faith. 3:12 But the law is not based on faith, but the one who does the works of the law will live by them. 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us

3:19 Why then was the law given? It was added because of transgressions, until the arrival of the descendant to whom the promise had been made. It was administered through angels by an intermediary. 3:20 Now an intermediary is not for one party alone, but God is one. 3:21 Is the law therefore opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that was able to give life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 3:22 But the scripture imprisoned everything and everyone under sin so that the promise could be given — because of the faithfulness of Jesus Christ — to those who believe. 3:23 Now before faith came we were held in custody under the law, being kept as prisoners until the coming faith would be revealed. 3:24 Thus the law had become our guardian until Christ, so that we could be declared righteous by faith. 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian

4:1 Now I mean that the heir, as long as he is a minor, is no different from a slave, though he is the owner of everything. 4:2 But he is under guardians and managers until the date set by his father. 4:3 So also we, when we were minors, were enslaved under the basic forces of the world. 4:4 But when the appropriate time had come, God sent out his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 4:5 to redeem those who were under the law, so that we may be adopted as sons with full rights. 4:6 And because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, who calls “Abba! Father!” 4:7 So you are no longer a slave but a son, and if you are a son, then you are also an heir through God. 4:8 Formerly when you did not know God, you were enslaved to beings that by nature are not gods at all. 4:9 But now that you have come to know God (or rather to be known by God), how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless basic forces? Do you want to be enslaved to them all over again? 4:10 You are observing religious days and months and seasons and years. 4:11 I fear for you that my work for you may have been in vain. 4:12 I beg you, brothers and sisters, become like me, because I have become like you. You have done me no wrong!

4:21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, do you not understand the law?

5:1 For freedom Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not be subject again to the yoke of slavery. 5:2 Listen! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no benefit to you at all! 5:3 And I testify again to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 5:4 You who are trying to be declared righteous by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace! 5:5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait expectantly for the hope of righteousness. 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision carries any weight — the only thing that matters is faith working through love.

5:13 For you were called to freedom, brothers and sisters; only do not use your freedom as an opportunity to indulge your flesh, but through love serve one another. 5:14 For the whole law can be summed up in a single commandment, namely, “You must love your neighbor as yourself.”

6:12 Those who want to make a good showing in external matters are trying to force you to be circumcised. They do so only to avoid being persecuted for the cross of Christ. 6:13 For those who are circumcised do not obey the law themselves, but they want you to be circumcised so that they can boast about your flesh.

Ephesians

2:14 For he is our peace, the one who made both groups into one and who destroyed the middle wall of partition, the hostility, 2:15 when he nullified in his flesh the law of commandments in decrees.

Philippians

I lived according to the law as a Pharisee. 3:6 In my zeal for God I persecuted the church. According to the righteousness stipulated in the law I was blameless. 3:7 But these assets I have come to regard as liabilities because of Christ. 3:8 More than that, I now regard all things as liabilities compared to the far greater value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things — indeed, I regard them as dung! — that I may gain Christ, 3:9 and be found in him, not because I have my own righteousness derived from the law, but because I have the righteousness that comes by way of Christ's faithfulness — a righteousness from God that is in fact based on Christ's faithfulness.

Colossians

2:14 He has destroyed what was against us, a certificate of indebtedness expressed in decrees opposed to us. He has taken it away by nailing it to the cross.

1 Timothy

1:6 Some have strayed from these and turned away to empty discussion. 1:7 They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not understand what they are saying or the things they insist on so confidently.
1:8 But we know that the law is good if someone uses it legitimately, 1:9 realizing that law is not intended for a righteous person, but for lawless and rebellious people, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 1:10 sexually immoral people, practicing homosexuals, kidnappers, liars, perjurers — in fact, for any who live contrary to sound teaching.

Hebrews (written to Jewish Christians)
(This is edited down a lot, but I urge you to go read it)
7:11 So if perfection had in fact been possible through the Levitical priesthood — for on that basis the people received the law — what further need would there have been for another priest to arise, said to be in the order of Melchizedek and not in Aaron's order? 7:12 For when the priesthood changes, a change in the law must come as well. 7:18 On the one hand a former command is set aside because it is weak and useless, 7:19 for the law made nothing perfect. On the other hand a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God. 7:20 And since this was not done without a sworn affirmation — for the others have become priests without a sworn affirmation, 7:21 but Jesus did so with a sworn affirmation by the one who said to him, “The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind, 'You are a priest forever'” — 7:22 accordingly Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant. 7:24 but he holds his priesthood permanently since he lives forever. 7:25 So he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.
8:6 But now Jesus has obtained a superior ministry, since the covenant that he mediates is also better and is enacted on better promises.
8:13 When he speaks of a new covenant, he makes the first obsolete. Now what is growing obsolete and aging is about to disappear.
9:15 And so he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the eternal inheritance he has promised, since he died to set them free from the violations committed under the first covenant. . . But now he has appeared once for all at the consummation of the ages to put away sin by his sacrifice. 9:27 And just as people are appointed to die once, and then to face judgment, 9:28 so also, after Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many, to those who eagerly await him he will appear a second time, not to bear sin but to bring salvation.

James (written to Jewish Christians)

1:25 But the one who peers into the perfect law of liberty and fixes his attention there, and does not become a forgetful listener but one who lives it out — he will be blessed in what he does. 1:26 If someone thinks he is religious yet does not bridle his tongue, and so deceives his heart, his religion is futile. 1:27 Pure and undefiled religion before God the Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their misfortune and to keep oneself unstained by the world.

2:8 But if you fulfill the royal law as expressed in this scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 2:9 But if you show prejudice, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as violators. 2:10 For the one who obeys the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it. 2:11 For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a violator of the law. 2:12 Speak and act as those who will be judged by a law that gives freedom. 2:13 For judgment is merciless for the one who has shown no mercy. But mercy triumphs over judgment.

4:11 Do not speak against one another, brothers and sisters. He who speaks against a fellow believer or judges a fellow believer speaks against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but its judge. 4:12 But there is only one who is lawgiver and judge — the one who is able to save and destroy. On the other hand, who are you to judge your neighbor?
4:13 Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go into this or that town and spend a year there and do business and make a profit.” 4:14 You do not know about tomorrow. What is your life like? For you are a puff of smoke that appears for a short time and then vanishes. 4:15 You ought to say instead, “If the Lord is willing, then we will live and do this or that.” 4:16 But as it is, you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil. 4:17 So whoever knows what is good to do and does not do it is guilty of sin.

1 John

2:3 Now by this we know that we have come to know God: if we keep his commandments. 2:4 The one who says “I have come to know God” and yet does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in such a person. 2:5 But whoever obeys his word, truly in this person the love of God has been perfected. By this we know that we are in him. 2:6 The one who says he resides in God ought himself to walk just as Jesus walked.

3:4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; indeed, sin is lawlessness. 3:5 And you know that Jesus was revealed to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 3:6 Everyone who resides in him does not sin; everyone who sins has neither seen him nor known him. 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you: The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Jesus is righteous. 3:8 The one who practices sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was revealed: to destroy the works of the devil. 3:9 Everyone who has been fathered by God does not practice sin, because God's seed resides in him, and thus he is not able to sin, because he has been fathered by God. 3:10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are revealed: Everyone who does not practice righteousness — the one who does not love his fellow Christian — is not of God.

5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been fathered by God, and everyone who loves the father loves the child fathered by him. 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God: whenever we love God and obey his commandments. 5:3 For this is the love of God: that we keep his commandments. And his commandments do not weigh us down, 5:4 because everyone who has been fathered by God conquers the world.

[R7-12]

Jbuza,

You admittedly agreed,

OK fine I do not want to keep the Law.

Perhaps I could ask you a hypothetical question? If you could accept for a moment, for the sake of discussion, that Almighty God requires your obedience to His law, specifically the Ten Commandments, the clean and unclean food laws, the Sabbaths, New Moons, and annual Holy Days. What would it take for you to get to the place where you would genuinely want to keep His law?

Just for the record what law are you talking about? Which parts? Very specific please. What is your basis for following only those parts.

The list above is fairly comprehensive. The laws given to Israel for national administration cannot be kept now as they were then for obvious reasons. However, I try to keep the spiritual principles behind those laws to the best of my ability. The physical temple system including offerings, sacrificial and purification ordinances, were originally given as temporary injunctions intended to lead physical Israel to the goal or end of the law which was faith in the prophesied Messiah to come, who would suffer for our benefit. Instead Israel tried to pursue the law of righteousness through the works of the law — which are the sacrificial works involving animal offerings, instead of pursuing the law of righteousness by faith. They stumbled over the stumbling stone because they did not understand what the physical temple system portrayed and pointed to symbolically due to their unwillingness to keep the law from a circumcised heart. They rejected the concept of a man dying for their sins in place of the animal sacrifices and thus chose to pursue righteousness through the only way they knew — lots of animal blood (Rom. 9:30-33). These works of the law along with the physical priests could never fulfill the righteous requirement of the law because of the weakness of the flesh involved in this system. Thus God provided the means to fulfill this requirement by sending His son to become fully human and condemn sin through his victory over it in his innocent death so that this same requirement is fulfilled in us when we die with Christ in baptism (Rom. 6:8; 8:3-8, Col. 3:3). Thus Christ fulfilled this aspect of the law becoming the High Priest and mediator, the unblemished sacrificial Lamb, and the means by which the Spirit of God may indwell us creating the spiritual temple in us. Thus the law was modified as God had always intended (Heb. 7).

With Christ as the central aspect of the law within God's plan of salvation, I strive to keep the whole law of God. My basis for this is the command to live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God (Matt. 4:4).

I think you misunderstand me then, because what is right in my own eyes is giving in to my own lusts and pleasing myself.

Yes, I understand (Rom. 8:7-9; 7:18-25).

I can assure you that I don't want to love my neighbor and that there are numerous things that he (my actual neighbor) does that aggravate me badly.

Matt. 5:43-48, Rom. 13:10, Gal. 5:13-15

Also there are things that other not so close neighbors do that require forgiveness so that I can continue to do my duty as I see it.

Luke 6:37-38, Rom. 6:7-8

sure continue. Just know that I am not going to argu against your keeping the LAw, but I will continue to illustrate why I do not believe I am obligated to.

What would a tug of war using the scriptures accomplish?

I'm very familiar with all of the arguments against obedience to the law of God — I've heard them all.

I mistakenly thought you were interested in understanding why God has given the law to His children so that they could learn to correctly follow, worship, and love both our heavenly Father and our fellowman.

In your last post you wrote,

necessary rules: 15:29 that you abstain from meat that has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what has been strangled and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from doing these things, you will do well.

Then it's true, the rest of the Bible is unnecessary. All we need to do to is ask Jesus into our hearts, believe in him, keep these four rules, and … Presto! Everlasting life!

I wouldn't want to waste your time in an ongoing discussion with me concerning that which you have no intention of learning about or applying in your life.

Perhaps we will find something to discuss that we both have interest in sometime in the future. Until then, I await your answer to the hypothetical question I asked earlier.

R7-12

[Jbuza]

gone

[Jbuza]

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[R7-12]

Jbuza,

I guess in your hypothetical question you are really asking me if I was a Jew and lived before the New Covanent would I have a desire to kep the Law.

You've altered my question to suit the answer you're comfortable with.

The question is,

… [IF] Almighty God requires your obedience to His law, specifically the Ten Commandments, the clean and unclean food laws, the Sabbaths, New Moons, and annual Holy Days. What would it take for you to get to the place where you would genuinely want to keep His law?

I really see no benefit to wondering about how things could be without Christ's redemption from the Law.

Please provide the Scripture that says what you're asserting above — that Christ provided redemption from the law. I'll let you know now that it cannot be found because it isn't in the Bible.

I see that you don't believe in presto Salvation

Presto Salvation is not taught in the Bible. Hear are a few texts which prove this,

But he who endures to the end will be saved (Matt. 10:22b, NKJV).

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day (John 6:44, NKJV).

Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown (Rev. 3:11, NKJV).

And because lawlessness (breaking God's commandments) will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13“But he who endures to the end shall be saved” (Matt. 24:12-13, NKJV).

The literal re-birth that all must experience to enter the kingdom occurs at the resurrection when God's elect are raised flesh and then translated into spirit. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom; therefore, salvation is not given until we are born as spirit sons of God.

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” (John 3:5, NKJV).

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit (John 3:6, KNJV).

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption (1 Cor. 15:50, NKJV).

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”(1 Cor. 15:53-54, NKJV).

You wrote,

If you are convinced you must keep the Law for Salvation and work for it, then go back and reread the words of Jesus' apsotles that I posted for those interested.

You are mistaken Jbuza, you have made the assumption that I believe keeping the law will earn salvation. I have never said that but you may have made your assumption from this statement,
I said,

If one does not submit to God's Law/Word, they will not receive life.

Perhaps you equated this with earning salvation? The fact that we are expected to obey God if we even hope to receive everlasting life is not the same as earning everlasting life because we do what He says. The Bible is clear,

But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! 6For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, 7always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith; 9but they will progress no further, for their folly will be manifest to all, as theirs also was.
10But you have carefully followed my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, love, perseverance, 11 persecutions, afflictions, which happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra—what persecutions I endured. And out of them all the Lord delivered me. 12Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. 13But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work (1 Tim. 3:1-17, NKJV).

To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled. 16They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work (Titus 1:15-16, NKJV).

For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. 4But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men (Titus 3:1-8, NKJV).

The opposite of believing is disobedience,

Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient[/u], “The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone,” 8and “A stone of stumbling And a rock of offense.” They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed. 9But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy (1 Peter 2:7-10, NKJV).

[R7-12]

I made it clear in my earlier post that I don't believe salvation is earned by any means including obedience to God's law.

You asked,

Should I be rewarded at all for the things that I have done that are merely my duty?

“Does he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I think not. 10“So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, 'We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.' ” (Luke 17:9)

My comment was,

There is no profit or reward for doing what is our duty. Not even a “thank you.” But we are given life everlasting by grace as a gift from God and in turn He requires obedience to His will in faith - trusting Him (Matt. 19:17).

I also said,

Obedience to God is not about earning anything and never was. It is about doing what He commands because we love Him and trust Him.

Evil and iniquity are sin (Job 10:14, Ps. 51:2, Jer. 31:34; 36:3, Rom. 7:7). Sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4, Rom. 5:13; 7:7, 1 John 2:1-7). Disobedience to God is not keeping His commandments and law (Deut. 8:2; 28:45, 1 Kings 9:6, Ps. 89:31-34, 1 John 2:3-5, 1 John 5:3-5). God requires us to do His works which include keeping his commandments (Psalm 78:7).

Thus, the gift of everlasting life most certainly will not be granted to those who are disobedient. Does it make sense to you that God would grant everlasting life to those who practice evil?

But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11For there is no partiality with God. 12For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13(for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; (Rom. 2:5-13, KJV).

You wrote,

I just want to say the keeping of the Law will not endure because it has been only kept partially, but things from Love and Faith will survive a fiery trial. (Malachi 2:9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law; [emphasis added by R7-12]

It appears your interpretation of this text in Malachi is in error. Notice why it is says what it does,

The law of truth was in his mouth, And injustice was not found on his lips. He walked with Me in peace and equity, And turned many away from iniquity. 7“For the lips of a priest should keep knowledge, And people should seek the law from his mouth; For he is the messenger (SHD 4397 mal'ak: Angel) of the LORD of hosts. 8But you have departed from the way; You have caused many to stumble at the law. You have corrupted the covenant of Levi,” Says the LORD of hosts. 9“Therefore I also have made you contemptible and base Before all the people, Because you have not kept My ways But have shown partiality in the law.” 10Have we not all one Father? Has not one God created us? Why do we deal treacherously with one another By profaning the covenant of the fathers? (Mal. 2:6-10, NKJV).

It is because those spoken to in this text have not kept the entirety of the law but have departed from the way and have caused many to stumble at the law, and corrupted the covenant, have not kept God's ways but have shown partiality in the law, which is sin, that they are receiving this admonishment. Thus the point of the text shows that we are not to be partial towards the law but keep it all.

Showing partiality is: Favoring one person or side over another or others; biased or prejudiced.
This concept of showing partiality towards someone is rendered a respecter of persons in some translations of the Bible, e.g. Acts 10:34 in the KJV.

You quoted,

1 Conrinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

You have connected the Malachi text with this one from the words partial and part but the two speak of entirely separate issues.

That which was in part was the sacrificial ordinances and temples system (blood of bulls and goats). Christ became the perfect sacrifice, the perfect High Priest and commenced the spiritual temple within his disciples which extends to all God's people.

You seem to indicate by rejecting, not my words, the Word of God and saying no, that is wrong not just the commandments that the Apostles of Jesus and the Spirit of God listed, but they must be subject to all the commandments.

The letters and epistles of the New Testament were not written to replace the Hebrew Scriptures. Understanding this is crucial. In fact, none of the writers knew that they would be combined into one book of Scriptures. The writings in the NT were for clarification on what had already been written in the OT. They were commentary on the Hebrew Scriptures intended to help those who were called to the truth. Therefore, the entirety of the law of God was never replaced, made void, done away, fulfilled in the sense of completed and thus made obsolete, or rendered null and void. All of the Ten Commandments are listed in the NT but whether they are or not does not in it and of itself provide the authority to declare they are not applicable.

Christ and the apostles said on numerous occasions that the commandments of the Father MUST be kept. This is the fact of the matter.

Paul said to the pharisees, "Why do you tempt God" All I can say to you is read carefully the scripture I posted and have freedom from the LAw through Christ.

The point Acts 15 conference is not well understood. If you wish to review the conference, we can certainly do that but it be well to first continue through the issue one point at a time… don't you think?

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 4For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. 5Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? (1 John 5:3-5, NKJV)

R7-12

[R7-12]

Jbuza,

You said,

I am interested in the Law, I don't think the law is a bad thing, and I certianly wasn't trying to offend you.

You have not offended me and I hope I did not say something that would lead you to think that you did.

Why was the law given?

That's a BIG question, I will try to keep it simple.

The law of God emanates from the very nature of God. The law reveals perfect principles, standards, morals, thought and conduct. Only life that is perfect can live. Flesh and blood can be created innocent but it cannot remain so especially with the influence of the adversary. Thus God provided His law and revealed it progressively beginning with one commandment given to Adam, which, as the head of the woman, he passed on to Eve. Ultimately both sinned as we all would. From that point God initiated His plan of salvation which included the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Rev. 13:8 ), which was necessary to ultimately deal with Satan's first sin which preceded the sins in the garden and the rest of mankind. Thus the Lamb of God is central to the law of God as the means by which all of God's creation will be redeemed (to be legally bought back or purchaded with the acceptable price). When Israel was led out of Egypt (a type of sin) they were given the commandments of the law and also the temple ordinances of the law which were for dealing with the physical requirements for committing sin. This whole temple system was the tutor or schoolmaster or guardian Paul spoke of when he said,

Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith (Gal. 3:24, NKJV).

Thus we are to be justified by faith and not by the animal sacrifices which were temporary. The sacrifices were intended to lead the sinner to the understanding of such things as: the significance of breaking the law, remorse for walking contrary to God, repentance for breaking God's law, the penalty of violating the law which is the law of sin and death because the sinner is required to pay with his life; the need for a substitute sacrifice involving innocent blood, mercy, faith, forgiveness, and the ultimate need for the Messiah to provide a perfect sacrifice. The list goes on but I think you get the drift. It is through the law that all of God's creation may be saved. But hang on a second before you scoff at this statement. Often when the word law is used people make a lot of false assumptions. Christ is the means within the law that provides the atonement price we must all pay in order to be forgiven upon repentance and justified by God.

The fact is the law plays many important roles and it is also the only means by which we can know God and Jesus Christ whom He sent.

IF their simply had been no law their would have been no consequence for sin, as I understand things.

Well not quite, if there had been no law (which is a logical impossibility because it is spiritual and is of God), then there would be no sin for sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). Following from that of course it is true that there would also not be any consequence for breaking the commandments which in fact remains to this day.

So how do you feel the law applies to yourself?

I must strive to live by the spiritual principles the law reveals just as God has commanded and Christ also. It is not to earn salvation but to live as is pleasing to God because then we strive to be like our Father — something every good father wants of his son. The Holy Spirit guides me as I study God's word and thus am able to discern truth and between the spirits, in conjunction with the law and the testimony. The Holy Spirit will never lead or influence anyone contrary to the law of God (Isaiah 8:20).

Much, much more could be written concerning this but I hope what I've shared so far helps.

Tell me about the Law, and how you see it within Christianity.

I suppose I have been from the beginning of this thread.

There is right and there is wrong. God tells us that all things wrong are sin and all sin is transgression of the law. Thus to live and do and be right or righteous, we must have this law placed in our minds and written upon our hearts. This is done by living by what God commands and learning to love Him and our fellowman by doing those things in the law that teach us how to love correctly. To strive to live by God's Law/Word is to strive to do good. This pleases our Father. When we make a mistake and commit sin, we have an advocate who has died in our place and has therefore paid our debt to the law, and so we can be forgiven when we earnestly repent and be justified in Christ's death by Almighty God. This is how we become righteous by God's judgment and then qualify to receive the gift of everlasting life. Our qualification is by the power of God but we must do our part as He commands.

All of this depends entirely upon our faith in God that He will raise us from the state of death, to life, if we trust in Him that He will do this and demonstrate our trust by doing His will reflected in the law and the testimony.

If someone speaks contrary to the law and the testimony it is because there is no light in them (Isaiah 8:20). Only those who keep the commandments of God will be given the authority to the tree of life (Christ and the Spirit of God) and thus may one day enter the city of God (Acts 5:32, Rev. 20:16).

Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

R7-12

[Jbuza]

gone

[R7-12]

Jbuza,

It's not my custom to enter disputes on the law of God or other Scriptural matters. Perhaps when you have come to accept the Biblical injunction (both OT and NT) to live by the law of God as He commands, we will continue discussions.

Peace and blessings,
R7-12

[Jbuza]

gone