Time Upside Down

Mastriani · Post by **Mastriani** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 9:59 am

AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:I think you are referring to our perception of the truth, not the truth itself. Truth is not subject to our beliefs and logic, just perceptions of truth.

The contention of logic based perception of truth is as antiquated as the Earth itself. Truth, without individual perception does not exist, except in the case of the Divine Creator.

This discourse is based upon the contention of human "truth", which is not a universal maxim. Even the most rudimentary logic functions of any human are constantly checked against the individuals primary psychological foundations, most often the extrinsic value system of paternal and maternal influence.

Hence, I submit that when you say "truth" you are still speaking from a perspective, personal, of what your mind equates to be said truth.

Current studies into mirror neurons prove that the human mind acts most often autonomously, even with regard to motor function, (ie. the mind decides you are going to move your hand to pick up the coffee cup 1 second before you "think" to grab it).

This is also true with logic functions, the mind surreptitiously makes checks against certain values preprogrammed earlier into the value system, before arriving at a conclusion.

Religious Fanatic · Post by **Religious Fanatic** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 11:55 am

I agree with you a great deal, Mastriani, and I have not only been studying this but also doing experiments. I arrived at the same conclusion about freedom and actions. It is totally absurd that people would put so much faith in superstition just to defend the arminian position.

I'm glad I'm not so dumb as to fall into their trap.

Mastriani · Post by **Mastriani** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 12:15 pm

Religious Fanatic wrote:I agree with you a great deal, Mastriani, and I have not only been studying this but also doing experiments. I arrived at the same conclusion about freedom and actions. It is totally absurd that people would put so much faith in superstition just to defend the arminian position.

I'm glad I'm not so dumb as to fall into their trap.

Being that my knowledge in this area is, honestly, more philosophical than empirical, could you offer up any references or studies to help diminish my ignorance???

Religious Fanatic · Post by **Religious Fanatic** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 12:30 pm

Being that my knowledge in this area is, honestly, more philosophical than empirical, could you offer up any references or studies to help diminish my ignorance???

Just studying everyday life and whatnot! (Ask BGood for some more links or studies)

Here's a good experiment showing how environment affects people's actions, attitudes, and will: http://www.prisonexp.org

Mastriani · Post by **Mastriani** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 1:39 pm

Well done. Very interesting link, in a rather horrifying fashion I might add.

The human animal is more egregiously influenced that I would have anticipated.

Truth then is subjective is more ways than have been enumerated upon here.

Thank you.

BGoodForGoodSake · Post by **BGoodForGoodSake** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 2:17 pm

Mastriani wrote:Well done. Very interesting link, in a rather horrifying fashion I might add.
The human animal is more egregiously influenced that I would have anticipated.
Truth then is subjective is more ways than have been enumerated upon here.
Thank you.

Be careful to qualify truth with perceived as in perceived truth is subjective.
Truth in itself is absolute, of course.

=)

Mastriani · Post by **Mastriani** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 2:50 pm

Show me please an "absolute" truth, I am obviously ignorant of such things.

Jbuza · Post by **Jbuza** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 2:58 pm

August · Post by **August** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 3:38 pm

Mastriani wrote:Show me please an "absolute" truth, I am obviously ignorant of such things.

Are you saying there are no absolute truths?

Byblos · Post by **Byblos** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 4:12 pm

Mastriani wrote:Show me please an "absolute" truth, I am obviously ignorant of such things.

An absolute truth is that there's a user named Mastriani on this forum who will not respond to this post.

Mastriani · Post by **Mastriani** » Fri Dec 30, 2005 7:37 am

Firstly, I will always respond in kind to any post where my voice or words have been involved. I do not, nor have I ever, shyed away from any intellectual discourse, including those where I am proven wrong. I am a proponent of learning process, which means failure is at times essential.

My problem with absolutes is, and always has been comparable to the inherent flaws of epistemic philosophy: The initial starting point is the human logic and psycholological framework. We are flawed, all of us, none escapes the deprecation of mind.

The only place that absolutes exist are with the Creator. As I can not inquire of that being, within rational context, I personally except that absolutes as framed by the human mind, are now, and ever will be, subjective and suspect, ad infinitum.

BGoodForGoodSake · Post by **BGoodForGoodSake** » Fri Dec 30, 2005 7:47 am

Mastriani wrote: The only place that absolutes exist are with the Creator. As I can not inquire of that being, within rational context, I personally except that absolutes as framed by the human mind, are now, and ever will be, subjective and suspect, ad infinitum.

Very good then,
Absolutes as framed by the human mind is suspect ad infinitum

That seems to me to be an absolute truth.

Absolute truth's are mainly abstractions, or constructs which the human mind uses to evaluate, and compare subjective truths.

Ideas such as good, evil, darkness, infinity, and love, they all have absolute forms.

Mastriani · Post by **Mastriani** » Fri Dec 30, 2005 8:34 am

BGoodForGoodSake wrote:
Mastriani wrote: The only place that absolutes exist are with the Creator. As I can not inquire of that being, within rational context, I personally except that absolutes as framed by the human mind, are now, and ever will be, subjective and suspect, ad infinitum.
Very good then,
Absolutes as framed by the human mind is suspect ad infinitum

That seems to me to be an absolute truth.

Absolute truth's are mainly abstractions, or constructs which the human mind uses to evaluate, and compare subjective truths.

Ideas such as good, evil, darkness, infinity, and love, they all have absolute forms.

Absolutely excellent post Bgood. Well done.

That was a perspective I had not the vision to entertain. Absolutes as abstractions. The Creator being an absolute, also an abstraction. Completely escaped my line of thought.
I never understood infinity to be an absolute because of it's held position as a theoretical, but nevertheless, I accept your definition. (Besides, I am a wretch with math, so likelihood is I would be in error anyways ... LOL)

One further inquiry: I accept your definition that absolutes are used for logical comparatives by the mind for testing subjectives. But then again, does that not make the absolute subjective based upon individual perceptions and adroitness of logic?

Jbuza · Post by **Jbuza** » Fri Dec 30, 2005 9:19 am

Mastriani · Post by **Mastriani** » Fri Dec 30, 2005 9:49 am

I most often try to avoid broadbrush generalities, but in the larger context of the human populace, yes, we accost ourselves constantly with subjectives based on perception and bias.

I studied with a Taoist monk for 2 years, who obviously was beyond my meager scope to understand. I understood his stance on absolutes, from his personal experience, and that is where I learned that the majority of people accept the subjective as absolute, and fail to inquire further to eradicate the egocentric destruction that causes subjectivity, to find truth.

My minimalist understanding of human existence, ergo, opinion based upon my experiences.

Evidence for God from Science

Time Upside Down

Not agreeable

RE:

Re: RE:

RE:

Absurdity in the human mind

Re: Absurdity in the human mind

Eureka!!! Thought outside the vacuum