Biochip=Mark of the Beast?

[puritan lad]

Cool. Just two more questions: How about the miracles? And isn't the "antichrist" supposed to stand in some temple and declare he is God?

I think I know where you are headed. Can you supply me with the exact scriptures?

[Mystical]

I'm not headed anywhere so I don't have any scripture. It's what I've always heard people say. Maybe someone else can supply scripture?

[R7-12]

puritan lad wrote,

Those who did not recognize the diety of the Roman state were ostracized from the market place, plundered by tax collectors, and persecuted even unto death. Those who participated in Caesar worship were branded with his mark. Those who worshipped the true God were branded with God's mark (Revelation 14:1). The marks are not literal.

The Roman deity mentioned according to historians consisted of Jupitor, Juno and Minerva as the central aspect of worship in the temple on Capitaline Hill.

The systems associated with their worship permeated Roman culture. It was evident who worshipped these deities by the customs and traditions they were involved in.

Those who did not worship in the temple, particularly on the proscribed weekly day of worship and the annual festivals, were in fact ostracized and later persecuted even unto death as puritan lad has said.

The accepted doctrines of the Roman system were considered truth and anyone who rejected any part of it was indeed marked.

Thus we have the mark of the Roman system identified by its religious practices and days of worship, and God's people are likewise marked by the system of worship given in Scripture.

We are identified by the customs and traditions we follow and by the doctrines we adhere to.

So if one wishes to identify some of the primary aspects of the mark of the Beast, look at the current accepted customs, traditions and doctrines whose origins are from the Greco-Roman systems of the past.

If one wishes to identify God's people, isolate each identifying sign given in Scripture. An identifying mark or sign is something Holy that God has given for His people to keep between God and us throughout our generations so that we may know that He is the one true God who sanctifies us.

If you're not sure where to begin your search, use two or three of the words above in bold to locate the relevant texts.

R7-12

[puritan lad]

I'm not headed anywhere so I don't have any scripture. It's what I've always heard people say. Maybe someone else can supply scripture?

I believe that you are referring to "man of sin" in 2 Thess. 2:1-12. This probably refers to the high priest. (Again, the term "antichrist" is not used here.) Remember, whoever this person was, he "is already at work" in Paul's day (2 Thess. 2:7). Obviously, this can't refer to a 21st Century figure.

[IRQ Conflict]

Some will suggest that the book of Revelation was written only for those living at the time, and that 666 most probably applies to Cæsar Nero, who ruled Rome from 54 to 68 A.D., rather than someone from latter centuries. This point of view, which suggests Revelation had an immediate application to the first century, rather than being prophetic, is known as preterism, and is commonly held by the Catholic Church. So, just how is Nero linked to 666?

The preterist takes a relatively uncommon form of Nero's name, Nero Cæsar or Cæsar Nero, and adds an "n", resulting in Neron Cæsar. Next the Latin is transliterated into Aramaic, resulting in nrwn qsr, which when using the numeric equivalent of the letters, then adds up to 666 as follows:
Nun = 50
Resh = 200
Waw = 6
Nun = 50
Qoph = 100
Samech = 60
Resh = 200

An example of this spelling has apparently been recently discovered in one of the Dead Sea scrolls. If you use the same process, but without the added "n" the result is 616. Interestingly, some early manuscripts have 616 rather than 666, but even scholars such as Irenæus [A.D. 120-202] attribute the 616 to only a copyist error (Against Heresies: Book V Chapter XXX.), "this number [666] being found in all the most approved and ancient copies" [of the Apocalypse] and asserts that "men who saw John face to face bearing their testimony" [to it - 666].

There is a problem though with the above calculation. According to the rules of Jewish numerology, known as gematria, when the letter Nun appears a second time in a word, it is known as a "Final", and takes the value of 700.* So to be precise, NRWN QSR actually adds up to 1316 and not 666.

*Source: Behind Numerology, by Shirley Blackwell Lawrence, copyright 1989, published by Newcastle Publishing Co., Inc., North Hollywood, California, ISBN 0-87877-145-X, page 41.

So the preterist calculation which attributes 666 to Nero, however, is nothing more than a rather desperate attempt to find some likely candidate for the Antichrist other than the Papacy.

Link

Note: Although a 7th day adventist site I found this interesting.

Here is some info on Preterism from a Jewish site

[puritan lad]

My response, Prove it.

This theology (preterism) wasn't taken seriously until the 17th Century though they will argue that.

Prove it. Ever hear of Augustine's City of God? Even Eusebius viewed the Olivet Discourse as fulfilled.

They will tell you that Dispensationalism wasn't taken seriously until 1817 which is totally false and is another message.

Prove it. Dispensationalism is the invention of the Irvingites, with John Nelson Darby later adding the "pre-trib" rapture element a few years later.

As for Nero--he wasn't the antichrist! He died in 68 AD before the destruction of Jerusalem. He was a whimpy emperor though evil, indeed. But he doesn't come close to being the "King of fierce countenance" of Daniel 8:23 and he made no covenant with Israel, Daniel 9:26, 27. Dispensationalists believe he will be destroyed by the King of kings, but Nero committed suicide. Before that, he issued no "mark" and people could buy and sell. He sat in no Temple declaring himself God, demanding he be worshipped (II Thess. 2:4). All Preterists deny there will be future Temples such as the Tribulation Temple and Millennial Temple.

I've already dealt with this many times. Nero was "the beast". There is no mention of "the beast" (or for that matter "antichrist") in Daniel 8, Daniel 9, or II Thess. 2.

Revelation was written in about 95 AD and not before 70 AD.

Again, Prove it.

According to the rules of Jewish numerology, known as gematria, when the letter Nun appears a second time in a word, it is known as a "Final", and takes the value of 700.* So to be precise, NRWN QSR actually adds up to 1316 and not 666.

The great majority of those associated with gematria would disagree. In any case, the beast is an obvious reference to Nero, even without the mark.

[IRQ Conflict]

Puritan lad, are you a proponent of Realized Eschatology?

I am just studying this "preterism" thing as I've been under a rock for the last decade and want to know just how far off the cliff you have jumped.

I was raised a non denominational Christian, when you posted that Nero was the antichrist I had to google it, and came across a plethora of different claims.

As Raymond Kelcy observed: “Paul contemplates the man of lawlessness being in existence and waging opposition at the time the Lord returns; the Roman empire has long ago ceased to be”

link

“[T]he identification of the papacy and its religious apparatus with Paul's words in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-10 was the prevailing view for more than a thousand years, a view supported by the writings and interpretations of many of the most brilliant men who ever lived on earth; and, on that account, there is no way for this writer to accept the sneers and snickers with which this interpretation is greeted by many modern commentators, as being an effective refutation of the arguments upholding it”

[puritan lad]

Puritan lad, are you a proponent of Realized Eschatology?

With the exception of the Second Advent, the Resurrection, and the Final Judgement, yes. No future "great tribulation", no future world dictator, no third Jewish temple, etc.

I am just studying this "preterism" thing as I've been under a rock for the last decade and want to know just how far off the cliff you have jumped.

I was raised a non denominational Christian, when you posted that Nero was the antichrist I had to google it, and came across a plethora of different claims.

IRQ Conflict,

Not sure if you are serious or sarcastic. You may not have been following these debates for long, but I've addressed this many times. Nero was "the beast". There is no individual called "antichrist". The "man of sin" in Thessalonians was probably the high priest. The kings of Daniel were various Macedonian, Seleucid, and Jewish Kings.

Now please support your claims that I have jumped off of a cliff with scripture, rather than tired old arguments that hold no water.

By the way, a premillennial dispensationalist should not get into a debate about historical eschatology, seeing as their view is less than 200 years old by the Plymouth Brethren (Irving and Darby) and has it's strongest supporting roots in pyramidology (John Taylor and Herbert Armstrong) and astrology, not the Bible. I'll let you do your own Google and/or research on that.

“[T]he identification of the papacy and its religious apparatus with Paul's words in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-10 was the prevailing view for more than a thousand years, a view supported by the writings and interpretations of many of the most brilliant men who ever lived on earth; and, on that account, there is no way for this writer to accept the sneers and snickers with which this interpretation is greeted by many modern commentators, as being an effective refutation of the arguments upholding it”

Prove it. How could Paul have referred to the papacy "already at work" when the papacy did not exist until centuries later?

[IRQ Conflict]

Ok, yes PL, I was being serious. up until I joined this forum a lot of other ideas people have and their interpretations were unkown to me.

Just saw this, have to go to work, but I'd love to study this view and learn more about it. Is there another thread to discuss this theory? or will this one do? I don't want to inadvertently derail it.

Just kidding about the cliff jumping thing, my attempts at humour are sometimes poor

[Mystical]

Makes more sense. I will begin my own research.

[puritan lad]

FYI:

Here are some excellent preterist books available for download.

http://www.freebooks.com/docs/_bksauth.htm

In particular, you may want to check out David Chilton's Days of Vengeance, The Great Tribulation, and Paradise Restored, Kenneth Gentry's Beast of Revelation, Before Jerusalem Fell, and Dwight Wilson's Armageddon Now. (Days of Vengeance will keep you busy for a while. It is an exposition on the entire Book of Revelation and is over 800 pages.) I also have all of these in printed format, and you can usually find them pretty cheap at http://half.com.

[Tugger]

The mark is not a literal mark in your forehead or in your hand. You work with your hands, and your thought process is in your head. Doing Satan's work by deception, misleading with traditions, etc. is the mark, just as the seal of God is knowing the truth. The ever so popular topic "666" is the 6th seal, the 6th trump and the 6th vial. When these are opened, sounded, and poured, this signals Satan's appearance on earth, just as Christ will appear at the 7th; after Satan has had his hour of temptation. When Satan is here, it is not going to be a terrifying time as is being taught. Satan was made the full pattern, he will not be this ugly devil that people depict him as.....part of the deception. People will not even know when he appears unless they are familiar with the signs. Satan will arrive in a peaceful manner. He has always wanted to sit on the Mercy seat as Christ. So as the instead-of-Christ, he will appear exactly as Christ would, but before Christ does for his alloted one hour of temptation. Those that know the truth will not find him tempting at all.

[led]

When Satan is here, it is not going to be a terrifying time as is being taught. Satan was made the full pattern, he will not be this ugly devil that people depict him as.....part of the deception. People will not even know when he appears unless they are familiar with the signs. Satan will arrive in a peaceful manner. He has always wanted to sit on the Mercy seat as Christ. So as the instead-of-Christ, he will appear exactly as Christ would, but before Christ does for his alloted one hour of temptation. Those that know the truth will not find him tempting at all.

.....except for the fact that your money is no good because you can't buy or sell without the mark. Seems to me that the mark and money are related.

It could very well be some kind of chip. Also an advanced chip could bring security and safety if they can track terrorists. Something to watch out for.

1 John 2:18 It is the last hour; and as you have heard, the Antichrist is coming.

1 Thessalonians 5: For when they say,"Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them.

[Jac3510]

You know, for a long time I thought that it might be a chip of some sort. But now, I think it's probably actually a tattoo . . . a mark. Just like the book says. This mark will either be his name or his number. The number is said to be 666. It would be kind of odd for "the number" to refer to some abstract concept when the two are so closely connected. Look at it, as translated by the ESV:

• Also it causes all, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave, to be marked on the right hand or the forehead, so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark, that is, the name of the beast or the number of its name. This calls for wisdom: let the one who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is 666.

Is there any reason to assume that this is figurative language? I don't really see any. Now, I suspect someone would object that if some world-leader wanted everyone to tattoo 666 on their hand or forehead, that there would be a world-wide revolt becaues "everyone would know its the Antichrist!" But, I really don't think this objection stands as:

1. The Christians have been taken out of the picture,
2. The vast majority of the world is biblically illiterate, and the percentage of people who know about the 666 issue (excluding born-again believers) would be relatively low,
3. This man will mock the God of Abraham (Rev. 13:5-7), so he may actually embrace the number exactly because of the implication,
4. Those who are left God will cause to "believe a lie" (2 Thess. 2:11),
5. People will be compelled to take this mark by the False Prophet.

All in all . . . this seems like a feasible scenario to me. Otherwise, Led, I was going to say the same thing you did with reference to Tugger's comments. So, I fully agree with you there.

God bless

[Kurieuo]

Is there any reason to assume that this is figurative language? I don't really see any.

Not even the fact Revelations is itself full of pictures and symbols, a book of prophecy (1:3) wherein the events described were "signified" by God's angel to John (1:1)?

In Revelation 14:1— we also have: "Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads." I don't know what you believe about this verse, but if being marked for God here is spiritual then it seems strange to say being marked for Satan is physical.

Further, I wonder how this literal mark fits in with your soteriological beliefs where once a Christian is saved by faith at any one time, they are always saved regardless of whether they loose such faith, convert to Islam, Buddhism or what have you. If a Christian obtained the mark of the beast (as physically understood), how would this impact upon their salvation within your theology?

Kurieuo