Hell

[IRQ Conflict]

Agreed, I didn't mean to say that our fruits were an indicator as to our standing with Grace

[Silvertusk]

You are probably right. But I still think it is a bit harsh. And I know it is a stumbling block for a lot of athiests. In humanistic terms - not believing something is not worthy of any punishment, let alone eternal. How am I going to convince my athiestic friend that it is not a harsh judgement - when the human mind cannot really grasp the concept of anything warrenting eternal punishment. None of it seems right to me. God can still be holy and yet send his enemies to oblivion. Besides didn't Jesus say that to beleive in him will give eternal life - surely not believing in him will mean you will die a second death - i.e. oblivion.,

[IRQ Conflict]

Yeah, it is harsh Silvertusk. Thats why God came up with a plan to save His creation, He loves us that much. Did you know that Christ feared what was coming upon Him so much he literally sweat blood? He knew the horrors of hell all too well. Although He was saddened ay the peoples actions they took against him it was not the fear of man that made Him tremble, He knew He was going to hell..literally!

And it appears also that He was in great shock and confusion on the cross and cried out "Father, why hast Thou forsaken me?"

Mar 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

I can only imagine how God must have felt hearing His Son cry out for Him, Jesus was made sin for us, instead the FULL cup of wrath that was supposed to be mans punishment would be poured on His Innocent Son.

I think at that moment the Fathers heart was broken. But He had to do this in order to fulfil His promise and desire to bring His people home.

If we CHOOSE not to believe Him, we spit on the very core of Gods Grace and Love. And call God a liar! How is that for gratitude?

Psa 116:6 The LORD preserveth the simple: I was brought low, and he helped me.

Make no mistake, God knows the beginning from the end. He is the Alpha and the Omega! He judges the hearts of man and no one that accepts the Truth of the cross will ever see it.

Praise the Lord! no wonder we will be praising God for all eternity! what an awesome sacrifice!

I read on another post somewhere, someone said something like 'it's less a faith thing and more of a following the obvious'. As it is written, the last day's 'knowledge shall increase' 'the wicked will become more wicked and the righteous shall be more righteous'.

Atheists that refuse to acknowledge the irrefutable proof of God's creation being 'willingly ignorant' (the judging of the heart play's into this) will deny the cross and go to hell. That is what they want.

Also, I would like to say that God's laws are eternal, He never changes. He set His law up before the foundation of the world, berfore he created man. He warned Adam (man) and Eve (woman) 'if you eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, you will surly die'.

Hell wasn't made for man. Hell was reserved for Satan and his fallen angels.

He told them not to, He told them the consequence if they did. But they did it anyway, being decieved and believing the lie of Satan.

[Silvertusk]

Yeah, it is harsh Silvertusk. Thats why God came up with a plan to save His creation, He loves us that much. Did you know that Christ feared what was coming upon Him so much he literally sweat blood? He knew the horrors of hell all too well. Although He was saddened ay the peoples actions they took against him it was not the fear of man that made Him tremble, He knew He was going to hell..literally!

And it appears also that He was in great shock and confusion on the cross and cried out "Father, why hast Thou forsaken me?"

Mar 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

I can only imagine how God must have felt hearing His Son cry out for Him, Jesus was made sin for us, instead the FULL cup of wrath that was supposed to be mans punishment would be poured on His Innocent Son.

I think at that moment the Fathers heart was broken. But He had to do this in order to fulfil His promise and desire to bring His people home.

If we CHOOSE not to believe Him, we spit on the very core of Gods Grace and Love. And call God a liar! How is that for gratitude?

Make no mistake, God knows the beginning from the end. He is the Alpha and the Omega! He judges the hearts of man and no one that accepts the Truth of the cross will ever see it.

Praise the Lord! no wonder we will be praising God for all eternity! what an awesome sacrifice!

I read on another post somewhere, someone said something like 'it's less a faith thing and more of a following the obvious'. As it is written, the last day's 'knowledge shall increase' 'the wicked will become more wicked and the righteous shall be more righteous'.

Atheists that refuse to acknowledge the irrefutable proof of God's creation being 'willingly ignorant' (the judging of the heart play's into this) will deny the cross and go to hell. That is what they want.

Also, I would like to say that God's laws are eternal, He never changes. He set His law up before the foundation of the world, berfore he created man. He warned Adam (man) and Eve (woman) 'if you eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, you will surly die'.

Hell wasn't made for man. Hell was reserved for Satan and his fallen angels, death and

He told them not to, He told them the consequence if they did. But they did it anyway, being decieved and believing the lie of Satan.

Thanks IRQ.

I am in no way disillusioned about the level of sacrifice and love that God has for us - this is very clear. However the fact still remains that Hell is something that God created and he has the power to prevent people from going to it - and yet he chooses not to. Why?

Yes you are right - those who have knowledge of the gospel and spit it back in Gods face is worthy of punishment - but eternal punishment? It seems to me to serve no purpose. (I know I am treading on thin ice here - daring to know the mind of God). What will that achieve? It just seems to go against the nature of God's mercy and grace and love - even for those who have forsaken him - "Forgive them Lord for they do not know what they are doing" was Jesus's cry from the cross - yet on a cosmic scale - this cry is being ignored.
This is one of the biggies in my opinion which will be a brickwall for a lot of athiests. The strobel interpretation seems to be consistent with the nature of God and the metaphors represented in Scripture.

Forgive me for being blunt in all this - but I need answers to questions like these for me to be able to convince one particular person in my life and also answer some deep rooted questions of my own.

God Bless

Silvertusk

[IRQ Conflict]

I share your view (although still beleive in literal hell) of the severity thing seemingly going against God's grain Silvertusk. There are things that with our level of revelation and knowledge, or lack thereof (more the case ) that we just aren't seeing the whole picture.

And I believe even us 'Christians' can live under the veil of deception to a degree depending on our walk with the Lord. I'm at a point where I can tell you that it's been my experiance that the Bible when taken 'with a grain of salt' 'pie in the sky' 'alegorical' views just don't pan out.

As my dad say's 'scripture interprets scripture'. So I tend to believe that when the Bible speaks of "Fire and Brimstone" I take it at that. And hope that I'm wrong.

You see the danger of not believing the Bible literally, people will become 'slack' 'lazy virgins' and not take the danger warning so seriously- NOT GOOD!

Thinking that our punishment would be limited to 'getting rid of God' (seperation from Him) would not be a very effective deterent. And I fear thats what Satan would want us to believe.

God Bless!

[Silvertusk]

I share your view (although still beleive in literal hell) of the severity thing seemingly going against God's grain Silvertusk. There are things that with our level of revelation and knowledge, or lack thereof (more the case ) that we just aren't seeing the whole picture.

And I believe even us 'Christians' can live under the veil of deception to a degree depending on our walk with the Lord. I'm at a point where I can tell you that it's been my experiance that the Bible when taken 'with a grain of salt' 'pie in the sky' 'alegorical' views just don't pan out.

As my dad say's 'scripture interprets scripture'. So I tend to believe that when the Bible speaks of "Fire and Brimstone" I take it at that. And hope that I'm wrong.

You see the danger of not believing the Bible literally, people will become 'slack' 'lazy virgins' and not take the danger warning so seriously- NOT GOOD!

Thinking that our punishment would be limited to 'getting rid of God' (seperation from Him) would not be a very effective deterent. And I fear thats what Satan would want us to believe.

God Bless!

You have a good point there about Satan. But I do actually think that Seperation from God is probably worse than fire and brimestone, because once you have seen the glory and majesty of the almighty then I really do believe that even the most hardened athiest will be crippled with that knowledge of what he has denied. That is the gnashing of teeth - that is the everlasting worm that eats away at them for all eternity. That is their torture and metal anguish. That is what they saught for in their lives - and that is what God has given them - he has given them to their sins.

So IMHO this is not as allegorical as it sounds. It reads very literally to me. You also have to ask the question - how can Hell be a place of eternal darkness and yet have everlasting fire? This is another reason why I think that the fire refers to Jugdement and yes it will be everlasting - but Hell is still a very dark and lonely place.

To be honest that version of Hell terrifies me more that the fire and Brimestone version.

Don't get me wrong I totally agree with your interpretation of it as well - but I think the one mentioned by Strobel is equally valid because nethier can be proved to be wrong exclusively. But hopefully neither of us will ever find out anyway.

God Bless

Silvertusk

[Kurieuo]

As my dad say's 'scripture interprets scripture'. So I tend to believe that when the Bible speaks of "Fire and Brimstone" I take it at that. And hope that I'm wrong.

Allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture, doesn't Scripture also use other terminologies of hell such as outer darkness (Matthew 8:12; Matthew 22:13), "chains of darkness" (2 Peter 2:4), and "blackest darkness" (2 Peter 2:17; Jude 1:13). Thus, wouldn't it be contradictory to say hell is literally fire a brimstone given Scripture also refers to it as a dark place?

I'm more inclined to believe such terminology is purely metaphorically descriptive. I do not believe it to be a literal place, I believe it to represent eternal seperation from God. 2 Thessalonians 1:9 it says: "They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power." People in Hell will be "shut out from the presence of the Lord." That in essence is really what I believe hell is. It is eternal separation from God. The metaphors of flames and weeping and gnashing of teeth are meant to convey what it's like for a person to be lost forever in a world just of his own, with his own selfish heart, his own selfish desires, and away from the source of all love, all goodness, all truth, structure and so forth. It is eternal punishment self-induced but enforced by God...

Kurieuo

[IRQ Conflict]

Allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture, doesn't Scripture also use other terminologies of hell

Replace the word 'terminologies' with 'descriptive attributes' and you'll be on the right track.

[IRQ Conflict]

You have a good point there about Satan. But I do actually think that Seperation from God is probably worse than fire and brimestone,

From someones point of veiw that wants to be in God's presence, yes.

because once you have seen the glory and majesty of the almighty then I really do believe that even the most hardened athiest will be crippled with that knowledge of what he has denied.

As was posted previously by another member, remember the rich mans attitude towards Lazarus? He wanted Lazarus to dip his finger in water so that he (the rich man) might quench the thirst of his tourment.

Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

How then would it be possible for Lazarus to bring the rich man to God through dipping his finger in water?

Note: "in water" not "in the water"

That is the gnashing of teeth - that is the everlasting worm that eats away at them for all eternity.

I don't see the correlation.

So IMHO this is not as allegorical as it sounds.

Yes it is

how can Hell be a place of eternal darkness and yet have everlasting fire?

Because God said it does, and God created it. Your looking at a creation with your human thoughts and intelect, thats where many athiests and big band theoriests get mixed up, and many creationists stray from the Word and try putting God in a box. That just won't work, God's too big to fit in our box.

This is another reason why I think that the fire refers to Jugdement and yes it will be everlasting - but Hell is still a very dark and lonely place.

Yes the fire does refer to judgment, in many places. Yes, everlasting is another attribute.

To be honest that version of Hell terrifies me more that the fire and Brimestone version.

Well, ok. Think then all those terifying attributes you've just described, then dump a bunch of black liquid fire everywhere.

Don't get me wrong I totally agree with your interpretation of it as well - but I think the one mentioned by Strobel is equally valid

Dear brother? Sister?, do not be decieved!

2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

because nethier can be proved to be wrong exclusively.

Sure it can, God does not lie!

But hopefully neither of us will ever find out anyway.

God forbids it!

[IRQ Conflict]

Ok, I did a 'little' bit of research and found this.

Anyone would agree that an undetected, uncontrolled fire is a menace that leaves disaster and destruction in its wake. When the fire happens to be invisible, as is the case with hydrogen fires...

So, this at least gives an example of something the human mind can comprehend

God Bless.

[IRQ Conflict]

Just caught this as I re read the posts.

"Forgive them Lord for they do not know what they are doing" was Jesus's cry from the cross - yet on a cosmic scale - this cry is being ignored.

Jesus became sin for us and bore the brunt of the FULL UNDILUTED WRATH OF GOD so that it would be possible for us to be forgiven.

That cry did NOT go unheeded on any scale.

God Bless.

[IRQ Conflict]

That is the gnashing of teeth - that is the everlasting worm that eats away at them for all eternity.

"Gnashing of teeth" would be in anger I believe. I did a light study on the word 'worm' in the Bible. Very interesting read, there are multiple worm types described in the Bible.

Mar 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

As out of the corruption of our bodies worms breed, which consume the flesh; so out of the corruption of our souls this never dying worm. This worm (say divines) is only a continual remorse and furious reflection of the soul upon its own willful folly, and now woeful misery. Oh, consider this before thy friends be scrambling for thy goods, worms for thy body, devils for thy soul. Go not dancing to hell in thy bolts; rejoice not in thy bondage, as many do; to whom the preaching of hell is but as the painting of a toad, which men can look on and handle without fear. -John Trapp

God Bless!

[Jac3510]

I forgot to get back to this . . .

I don't think that the Thess. passage is a good passage for the separation argument. When it says the people will be "separated from the presence of God," the word "presence" is προσωποv (prosopon). The word actually refers to the face, or to countenance . . . the idea is one looking upon you. The passage conveys the idea of God "hiding His face" from these people, but that does NOT mean they will be out of His presense totally. That would be in direct contradiction to Rev. 14:10.

In fact, I think the Thess. passage is a pretty good indicator that the torment is from without rather than from within. It plainly says that God will deal out punishment and retribution to those who did not "obey the Gospel" (that is, those who did not believe).

Just my two cents worth, again

[madscientist]

And also, it's worth noting that many instances where "Hell" is talked about in the New Testament are translated from different words meaning different things. Sometimes it's Hades, sometimes it's Gehenna the always-burning-rubbish-pit (which is the case in Luke 12, I believe), a comparison that was used to make the concept of Hell easier for people to understand, or something, and sometimes it's the place of eternal torment etc..

One thing that has always bothered me is whether heaven and hell are real PLACES or just a spiritual realm. Well this links to another thread i will soon post when ill have more time (about whether this world is a place or just a spiritual realm etc). Because people say "heaven is not a real place, just a spiritual feeling" or something like that. Well couldnt heaven and hell be just sort of eternal "dream" where we just suffer? Not a place, and the people around us etc maybe wouldnt exist in reality but would exist in our "realm" as in dreams? Just imagine how much you suffer while having a bad dream. You think it is reality but hopefully when it ends you realize it wasnt. But what if heaven/hell were just like dreams sort of? CAn someone define whats place and whats not?
ANd probably the burning fire is an interepretiation. I mean, if theres fire why cant there be extreme cold as well? Or other pains - being beaten up, falling on sharp objects, feeling extrremely sad etc. or even maybe having feelings that all the people hwo we loved ended in hell even if it isnt true? Could that be possible? Then hell isnt a place just a realm etc.

[fondstatue]

the bible says hell fire but those dead now are NOT IN HEELL thay are dead and everlasting punishment no you dont burn forever thats the devils teaching how could god do that oit says in other psassages bbut forebver in hebews meand s burn everthing till consumed then fire goes out in hebrew word s have different meanings