What do you know about this?

[Judah]

Has anyone read "Jesus: The Man and His Work" by Wallace D. Wattles?

I understand that Wallace D. Wattles has written other books of a self-improvement nature, on "personal power" and the "science of abundant life", etc.
This book on Jesus apparently makes claims about Him that may not exactly be Scriptural.
See here.

If anyone has actually read this book, or knows more about it, I would be very pleased to hear their comments on it. It does not sound like an orthodox view of Jesus. I am wondering if it is considered heretical, and if so, in what respect.

[B. W.]

Has anyone read "Jesus: The Man and His Work" by Wallace D. Wattles?

I understand that Wallace D. Wattles has written other books of a self-improvement nature, on "personal power" and the "science of abundant life", etc.
This book on Jesus apparently makes claims about Him that may not exactly be Scriptural.
See here.

If anyone has actually read this book, or knows more about it, I would be very pleased to hear their comments on it. It does not sound like an orthodox view of Jesus. I am wondering if it is considered heretical, and if so, in what respect.

No, I have not read this book but I do know something about Wallace D. Wattles.

Wallace D. Wattles was one of the founders of the New Thought movement way back around the turn of 1900's. New Thought can be akin to Mind Science or White Magic in tone and quality.

E W. Kenyon was also part of the New Thought Movement (Please do a Yahoo or Google search on E. W. Kenyon to find out more).

Also see this web site for more detials on New Thought - http://websyte.com/alan/

Kenyon and others, including Wattles attempted to blend Bible Scriptures to the New Thought mode of operations. They wrote books on the subject and twisted the Holy Bible to fit New Thought Ideology.

During the late 1940's to current date, such person's as Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland, Charles Capps, and others revived this New Thought as a Christianized form of New Thought Ideology.

Kenneth Hagin admits He was heavily influenced by the works of Kenyon. Kenyon was influenced by P. Quimby. Wattles was also influenced by Quimby's works and spun off on his own from them.

From the history, you can judge a tree by its fruit. Also, if Wattles foundation is faulty, you can rest assured that his theology is too concerning his book on Jesus.

The Mind Science formulas do work up to a point but where does it lead? It does not lead to the Jesus of the Bible but rather to a set of secret formulas of faith to attain blessings bypassing the real Jesus of the bible. Instead Humbleness is reinterpreted as being bold to proclaim your rights in Christ. Poor in Spirit is reinterpreted as accepting the wealth God promised you from the Bible. Being Bold as a lion is reinterpreted as name it and claim. The end result is satisfying personal greed and wantonness in a religious manner so a person will not feel guilty over about this.

Hope this Helps…
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[IRQ Conflict]

Kenneth Copeland is a dceitful man, for years I thought he was in line with scripture. Goes to show how we should 'study to show yourself approved' and 'test the spirits'. God wasn't joking that when he said Satan can come as an angel of light.

Name it and claim it, blab it and grab it....hehe hoo boy!

[Judah]

Thank you for that information, B.W., and for your comment too, IRQ.

You have confirmed my suspicions. I had exchanged links with someone whose writings in the main reflect similar concerns of my own, but his link to this book troubled me. I have now added a disclaimer to distance myself from that book.
The points you make do indicate a move away from the Jesus of the Gospels and I do not want others going in that direction on my account, or at all.

Thanks.

[IRQ Conflict]

Np! K. Copeland doesn't touch a lot on the fact he believes we are "little gods" and other things that are slight twists (white lies) of the Word.

That, I believe is why this type of deception is so dangerous, you don't alway's pick up what he is saying all the time. Although the link I'm providing can't be guaranteed to not be 'out there' as well as I haven't studied all their materials it does shed some light on the highly deceptive word-faith movement and their proponents.

God's reason for creating Adam was His desire to reproduce Himself... He was not a little like God. He was not almost like God. He was not subordinate to God even. Adam is as much like God as you could get, just the same as Jesus. ...Adam, in the Garden of Eden, was God manifested in the flesh.

.creeppyy!!
On Doctrine

[Judah]

That is very concerning, IRQ.
Thank you for pointing that out.

This is where a lot of liberal and revisionist theologians, plus the New Agers and cults would take us, and it is definitely not mainstream Biblical Christianity at all.

Yes, it is tricky stuff because it can start in ways that are quite subtle and anyone new to Christianity, or who doesn't know their Bible very well, can be easily deceived.
Another wolf in sheep's clothing, methinks.

[IRQ Conflict]

Yup! diference in word-faith and the Word that I can see is word-faith is what you want as opposed to the Word being in line with the will of God!

Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name, Thy Kingdom come, Thy will (not my will) be done on earth as it is in heaven.

People might be suprised at how much God's will and your will jive! The Holy Spirit can intercede for us to God. He knows our needs and wants, most of the time we don't.

God Bless!

[LadyHel]

Jesus was primarily a teacher, the Son of God thing I feel is a little bit of an irrelevence.
But as with anything that's taught, the pupil may have a different view on it than the teacher.
That doesn't make them wrong- religion can't be like maths- it just means that their life and experiences means the lesson means something different to them than to others.

[IRQ Conflict]

Jesus was primarily a teacher, the Son of God thing I feel is a little bit of an irrelevence.

If the fact Jesus was God incarnate was irrelevent, It would not have been mentioned by the 'Master'.

[Judah]

Jesus was primarily a teacher, the Son of God thing I feel is a little bit of an irrelevence.
But as with anything that's taught, the pupil may have a different view on it than the teacher.
That doesn't make them wrong- religion can't be like maths- it just means that their life and experiences means the lesson means something different to them than to others.

Christians believe that Jesus is the Son of God, one with the Father, God incarnate. He is that first and foremost - not primarily a teacher.
What do you mean... you "feel that the Son of God thing is a little bit of an irrelevence?"
If you do not accept the deity of Christ, the essential and central truth of Christianity, then you are not a Christian - not as understood by mainstream orthodox Christianity.
The last thing it is would be "irrelevant". It is critical to the Christian faith, not irrelevant.

We would have absolutely no authentic historical knowledge of the man Jesus from Nazareth, his sayings and teachings and way of life, if it were not for the four gospels.
If we reject the gospel accounts, wherein the deity of Jesus is proclaimed, as unhistorical then we really can have nothing objective to say about Jesus. Therefore, if we must keep a Jesus we must invent one.
You can invent whatever you like and call that Jesus - but it is not the real Jesus of the Bible, the one who said "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born, I am!" (John 8:58) and "I and the Father are one". (John 10:30)

[authentic]

this is further confirmation that the 'Word of Faith' doctrine's agenda is to make man a God. Anytime you tell people that they can "speak things into existance" and that we can actually tell God what we want-we would have to demote Jesus (who is God himself) to just a simple man like ourselves. What happens is that they use scripture (like satan), but twist the context of it to make it seem like it is saying one thing when it really means the opposite. For instance, they often quote the verse in Psalms, "Ye are Gods".. They use this to mean that we are little Gods and we can do EVERYTHING like the Almighty God in heaven. Now in true context, this really means that Leadership in the Earth (Presidents, Kings, Primeministers...etc) could have the title God or Lord attached to your position as a ruler in the earth. But they fail to proclaim the rest of the verse to give its full meaning, next it says "but you shall die like men".

Now to say that Christ's diety is irrelevant is to denounce the entire scripture. Everything in it is linked to Jesus, so to gloss over this very point , means that you have missed the entire message of scripture. Like Jesus said to Peter, when Peter asked him to "show us the Father", Jesus told him that after all of this time you have been with me , you didn't know that i am? So its clear to see that they are in grave error, and is leading others right with them.

[DougUK]

Hello everybody.
It really does grieve me when people attack ministers who have and are being a blessing in my Christian walk.
If I may just comment on the 'little god' thing that has been mentioned, I feel that people confuse this word 'god'. Elohim has several Names as we know and it's just the English which has brought God's Name down to one word.
My comment is, it IS biblical for someone other than ALmighty God to be god of this planet otherwise why would the bible call satan 'the god of this world'? And remember, how did he become the god of this world... Adam gave him the authority, which Almighty God had given him - it really is logical and makes sense.

[Canuckster1127]

Hello everybody.
It really does grieve me when people attack ministers who have and are being a blessing in my Christian walk.
If I may just comment on the 'little god' thing that has been mentioned, I feel that people confuse this word 'god'. Elohim has several Names as we know and it's just the English which has brought God's Name down to one word.
My comment is, it IS biblical for someone other than ALmighty God to be god of this planet otherwise why would the bible call satan 'the god of this world'? And remember, how did he become the god of this world... Adam gave him the authority, which Almighty God had given him - it really is logical and makes sense.

Welcome Doug,

Glad to have us with you.

I hadn't noticed this thread before as it was older than when I first arrived.

I am very familiar with Kenneth Copeland. I attended Oral Roberts University from 1980 - 1981 and then again from 1982 - 1985. I met Kenneth Copeland a few times as he was on campus to preach in chapel or special events. I also went a few time to Rhema and heard Kenneth Hagen preach.

I frankly had problems with several of the teachings of Copeland, Hagen and even at times, Oral Roberts. It obviously wasn't enough for me to leave, but the irony was that I was a Biblical Literature major and the more I learned about exegesis and textual criticism the more I identified problems with the Word of Faith movement. I also was at ORU and exposed to the teachings and preachings of several proponents within this movement or close to it. Jim and Tammy Baker, John Wesley Fletcher, Billy Joe Dougherty, John Osteen, Fred Price and others were regular preachers I sat under. I was at ORU when Oral was building the City of Faith Medical Center in Tulsa which despite God's revelation to him, failed.

I've been careful in my digesting this from the past not to leap quickly to the assessment of heresy as I believe that is a word that should be used in cases of cardinal doctrine and not just disagreement.

Copeland does have some questionable teachings, however that in some cases are remarkably close to gnostic error from the First and Second century.

The most offensive thing I observed in an ORU chapel in person was when Copeland was praying to God the Father and then Copeland paused for a moment in silence and then said, (and this is pretty much a direct quote and I can attest to it as I was there) "Jesus, I'll get to you in a moment, I'm speaking to your Father right now."

WOW! It was a controversy on campus for a week or two.

What are your thoughts about these comments of Copeland?

I found these here http://www.forgottenword.org/copeland.html

It's not a supportive site, but I think the quotes are accurate.

"Jesus went into hell to free mankind from the penalty of Adam's high treason...When His blood poured out it did not atone. Jesus spent three horrible days and nights in the bowels of this earth getting back for you and me our rights with God." (Ken Copeland, Personal letter from Ken Copeland, Ft. Worth Texas, March 12, 1979. (D. R. McConnell, A Different Gospel, page 118)


"The Spirit of God spoke to me and He said, 'Son, realize this. Now follow me in this and don't let your tradition trip you up.' He said, 'Think this way - a twice-born man whipped Satan in his own domain.' And I threw my Bible down...like that. I said, 'What?' He said, 'A born-again man defeated Satan, the firstborn of many brethren defeated him.' He said, 'You are the very image, the very copy of that one.' I said, 'Goodness, gracious sakes alive!' And I began to see what had gone on in there, and I said, 'Well now you don't mean, you couldn't dare mean, that I could have done the same thing?' He said, 'Oh yeah, if you'd had the knowledge of the Word of God that He did, you could have done the same thing, 'cause you're a reborn man too." (Dr. John MacArthur, "Charismatic Chaos," page 337. Kenneth Copeland, "Substitution and Identification")

"I was shocked when I found out who the biggest failure in the Bible actually is...The biggest one in the whole Bible is God...I mean, He lost His top-ranking, most anointed angel; the first man He ever created; the first woman He ever created; the whole earth and all the fullness therein; a third of the angels, at least - that's a big loss, man....Now, the reason you don't think of God as a failure is He never said He's a failure. And you're not a failure till you say you're one." (Ken Copeland, Audio-Clip "Christianity in Crisis," Hank Hanegraaff)

"I've had ugly books written about me because I said that Jesus died spiritually, but the fact is, I didn't say that ­the Bible said it. Jesus became our substitute. If he hadn't died spiritually, then we could never have been made alive spiritually. But He did! On the cross, Jesus was separated from the glory of God. He allowed Himself to be made sin for us, and He became obedient to death. He went into the pit of hell and suffered there as though He was the One Who had committed the sin." (Ken Copeland, "The Power of His Resurrection")

"God's purpose and plan--the deepest desire of His heart--is coming to pass. God is going to have a family of equals!" (Kenneth Copeland, "Fullness: God's Plan For His Family," BVOV Magazine, July & August 2004, page 32)

"If you stood Adam upside God, they look just exactly alike....If you stood Jesus and Adam side-by-side, they would look and act and sound exactly alike....The image is that they look just alike, but the likeness is that they act alike and they are alike....All of God's attributes, all of God's authority, all of God's faith, all of God's ability was invested in that man."(Kenneth Copeland, Authority of the Believer IV (Fort Worth: Kenneth Copeland Ministries, 1987, audiotape #01-0304), side 1

"You can have what you say! In fact, what you are saying is exactly what you are getting now. If you are living in poverty and lack and want, change what you are saying. It will change what you have...Discipline your vocabulary. Discipline everything you do, everything you say, and everything you think to agree with what God does, what God says, and what God thinks. God will be obligated to meet your needs because of His Word....If you stand firmly on this, your needs will be met." (D. R. McConnell, A Different Gospel, page 172. Ken Copeland, "The Laws of Prosperity," page 98, 101)

"He [Jesus] allowed the devil to drag Him into the depths of hell....He allowed Himself to come under Satan's control...every demon in hell came down on Him to annihilate Him....They tortured Him beyond anything anybody had ever conceived. For three days He suffered everything there is to suffer." (Kenneth Copeland, "The Price of It All," page 3.


"It takes money to preach the gospel. Jesus Himself knew that, and contrary to what some people think, His ministry was not a poor one. He had so much money coming in and going out through His ministry that He had to appoint a treasurer. His name was Judas." (Kenneth Copeland, "From Faith to Faith A Daily Guide to Victory," December 5)

[DougUK]

Hi Canuckster1127,
Thanks for the welcome,
Yes as you say about 'disagreements' between us brethren, I think it is so important to maintain unity between us all. So I'll continue to disccuss in love in response to your reply.
That's really interesting that you went to ORU. I spent my early Christian life in a 'Word church' about 10 years ago. However they felt they were moving on from tradional 'Word of Faith' teaching and looked back on that as just another classroom. The minister there had a realisation that it's not OURSELVES "using the Word and speaking it" but actually OURSELVES no longer live, but Christ lives in us! (...and the life which we now live we live by the faith OF the Son of God). And that's where I am today. I left Word of Faith teachings and simply added what I now knew on top of them.
However, within the last six months I've tuned into Kenneth and Gloria's broadcast again and been totally blessed through BVOV, especially Billye Brim's call to repentance and living in holiness and praying for the outpouring - (and He's taken me up a few nothches in my purity walk through this - of course I know it's His power in me that enables me to!)
I'll bring up a couple of interesting points:
1) A minister friend who went through Prosperity teaching in the 80's/ 90's commented how she had returned to listening to Ken Copeland etc. On the broadcast they were talking about being able to act immediately in helping the Katrina victims with supplies etc. and what the real role of the church is in situations like this. She said 'It's like they now realise what the prosperity is for'.
Do you notice how sometimes when a truth which has been absent from the church is restored, when it is re-introduced it is a bit like a pendulum and sometimes the way it is preached has SO much emphasis - it goes way over hammering the point in? ANd it's like it has to to have an effect and say something?
2) I realised that it was prideful to think I had moved on and was better than those Word of Faith teachers as God is speaking to them too! How do I know what God told them to teach and put on their heart! (I mean at one point in the Church, we had vows or poverty right!) Anyway, If I can quote what Creflo Dollar said the other day, perhaps this will encourage you: (as we all want the Body to grow up and be presented as a glorious church right?)
[Creflo was talking about love]
"I was with Brother Copeland that other day and I said, "Why preach anything else?". I said "What else are we going to talk about?".
We can take everything we've preached and we can put the love commandment on top of it and it re-preach it - it'll probably come out
better".

You know I honestly honestly fear for those people who put up critical websites about ministers (websites that people who aren't even saved can see) It's like spreading our private business in public. I truly believe the way to do it is speak/write TO the minister invloved and pray for them.

I am back attending an Anglican/Episcopal church now and I tell you there is one minister that I could have a field-day quoting odd lines he has said. Where are all the websites criticicizing the wishy-washy lukewarm sermons that pass over people's heads every Sunday, the ones without telling the unbelievers in the congregation how to receive the Lord and the ones that don't tell the Believers WHO they are in Christ and that they are accepted!

So, when the Lord has impressed on me to SOMETIMES go to this minister and say how something or other he said did not line up with the Word. ANd I do it privately, I never tell another congregation member and backbite.

You know, these people are growing and changing just like us. I would not like to have things I've said years ago quoted. I had a quick look through your quote of Ken and won't comment now for space but can do later, but didn't see anything wrong to be honest - and I'll talk later about this if you like.

[Canuckster1127]

Thanks Doug.

Unity is an important thing. Unity, among brothers doesn't mean complete agreement at all points and it is Biblical to challenge one another in the right spirit.

There's a difference between the average Christian having an "off day" in terms of belief and understanding. Leaders are held to another standard and when someone preaches publically it is appropriate to discuss and strive for truth publically.

I'd be interested in your thoughts addressing the specific statements Copeland made.

Even more, I'd be interested in your thoughts on the experience I related in Chapel at ORU where Kenneth Copeland effectively told Jesus to be quiet as he was praying to God the Father at the time. Do you see anything possibly conflicting or wrong with it?

That said, I'm certainly not perfect and there are messages and things I preached (I used to be a pastor) that frankly I wouldn't preach now, hopefully because I've grown and learned.

Where do you draw the line?

Blessings,

Bart