I'm not religious nor atheist - I'm agnostic. But I find the religions of this world very interesting.
I was wondering wether anyone would be willing to explain to me, in their own words, what they understand by the redemption and revalation of mankind, as I find them 2 very interesting themes.
- Michael
Revalation+Redemption - can anyone explain to me...
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michaelh2951
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Jac3510
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This is actually a really good question, Michael. Consider the following my two cent stab:
The two concepts, while closely connected, are also entirely distinct. Revelation refers to that act or moment in which something is revealed to a person. Generally, a revelation cannot be discovered by natural means. This makes it different from illumination (that "eureka" moment). In illumination, something "clicks" and causes a person to see things differently. It is closely related to finding a deeper understanding of a subject.
Redemption is something of a technical word, meaning literally to buy back. In Christian Theology, mankind has to be redeemed on account of the Fall. It seems that the concept of redemption is fairly silly in a purely naturalistic world. It isn't even very applicable on a purely sociological level. We often speak of a person redeeming themselves after some less than honorable act, but all that really has to do with is someone doing something that causes us to change our minds about them. Thus, redemption becomes subjective.
It is immediately obvious that one of the great goals of God is to redeem Man. This required revelation. Therefore, as redemption goes, so goes revelation. In fact, we can say that the act of redemption must always be followed by process of revelation. Dealing specifically with revelation, we can easily see that God's self-revelation is Revelation in its strictest form. Man can know nothing about God except what God chooses to show about Himself. God is not physical, and thus, He cannot be studied. C. S. Lewis built a great argument for Theism in general in Mere Christianity, but everywhere we see he depends on God's self-revelation, especially with regards to morality.
So God reveals Himself to Man, and He does this in several ways. His primary means for this, as alluded to above, is in His working of redemptive acts. Thus, when God called the Israelites from Egypt, He was showing something about Himself. When He sent prophets, He was explaining Himself. Of course, the supreme example of self-revelation was also the great Redemptive Act itself, namely the death and resurrection of Christ. We also have so called natural revelation, in which we learn something of God through His creation. But, in both of these cases, we see that God must explain Himself explicitly. This leads to a full understanding of redemption.
It is immediately obvious that, on Christian suppositions, God cannot expect a fallen creation to clearly understand His self revelation either in nature or in His redemptive acts. Thus, a special revelation is needed to explain these. Therefore, we see God's explanation of Himself in the beauty and order of the created world. But, more importantly, we see His explanation of His redemptive works. Thus, when the Israelites left Egypt, it wasn't left to them to see the significance of the event. Instead, God provided them an explanation and, in fact, a feast of remembrance. In just the same way, when Christ died and rose, it was not left for men to see the great value of this for themselves, but God sent apostles and preachers into the world to not merely proclaim the Good News but to explain it as well.
Redemption, then, is the basis of Revelation. Or, put another way, God reveals His redemptive plan that Mankind may benefit from it. Once a man understands the plan of God, it can then be put into effect.
As an aside, it is worth noting that revelation is not bound merely to redemption, or, at least, it has not always been. It should be obvious that redemption is only necessary for a fallen world. But, it is not so obvious that revelation is only necessary for a fallen world. For that statement to be true, it must be assumed that Man was created with the full knowledge of God, an idea that would be difficult, if not impossible to prove. Carried within this would be the idea that man actually lost the majority of his knowledge at the Fall. These points may be argued, but certainly not proved. Thus, it can be seen that revelation can, and probably does (in my view) exist in a redeemed world, for redemption alone does not yield a full understanding of God. What redemption actually does is remove the obstacles that make revelation difficult, so that God can be perceived clearly. This is already partially true in the life of the Christian, for (s)he can see and understand things that once were merely foolishness. If this is true in the fallen body, how much more true will it be once we are glorified?
Hope this help
God bless
The two concepts, while closely connected, are also entirely distinct. Revelation refers to that act or moment in which something is revealed to a person. Generally, a revelation cannot be discovered by natural means. This makes it different from illumination (that "eureka" moment). In illumination, something "clicks" and causes a person to see things differently. It is closely related to finding a deeper understanding of a subject.
Redemption is something of a technical word, meaning literally to buy back. In Christian Theology, mankind has to be redeemed on account of the Fall. It seems that the concept of redemption is fairly silly in a purely naturalistic world. It isn't even very applicable on a purely sociological level. We often speak of a person redeeming themselves after some less than honorable act, but all that really has to do with is someone doing something that causes us to change our minds about them. Thus, redemption becomes subjective.
It is immediately obvious that one of the great goals of God is to redeem Man. This required revelation. Therefore, as redemption goes, so goes revelation. In fact, we can say that the act of redemption must always be followed by process of revelation. Dealing specifically with revelation, we can easily see that God's self-revelation is Revelation in its strictest form. Man can know nothing about God except what God chooses to show about Himself. God is not physical, and thus, He cannot be studied. C. S. Lewis built a great argument for Theism in general in Mere Christianity, but everywhere we see he depends on God's self-revelation, especially with regards to morality.
So God reveals Himself to Man, and He does this in several ways. His primary means for this, as alluded to above, is in His working of redemptive acts. Thus, when God called the Israelites from Egypt, He was showing something about Himself. When He sent prophets, He was explaining Himself. Of course, the supreme example of self-revelation was also the great Redemptive Act itself, namely the death and resurrection of Christ. We also have so called natural revelation, in which we learn something of God through His creation. But, in both of these cases, we see that God must explain Himself explicitly. This leads to a full understanding of redemption.
It is immediately obvious that, on Christian suppositions, God cannot expect a fallen creation to clearly understand His self revelation either in nature or in His redemptive acts. Thus, a special revelation is needed to explain these. Therefore, we see God's explanation of Himself in the beauty and order of the created world. But, more importantly, we see His explanation of His redemptive works. Thus, when the Israelites left Egypt, it wasn't left to them to see the significance of the event. Instead, God provided them an explanation and, in fact, a feast of remembrance. In just the same way, when Christ died and rose, it was not left for men to see the great value of this for themselves, but God sent apostles and preachers into the world to not merely proclaim the Good News but to explain it as well.
Redemption, then, is the basis of Revelation. Or, put another way, God reveals His redemptive plan that Mankind may benefit from it. Once a man understands the plan of God, it can then be put into effect.
As an aside, it is worth noting that revelation is not bound merely to redemption, or, at least, it has not always been. It should be obvious that redemption is only necessary for a fallen world. But, it is not so obvious that revelation is only necessary for a fallen world. For that statement to be true, it must be assumed that Man was created with the full knowledge of God, an idea that would be difficult, if not impossible to prove. Carried within this would be the idea that man actually lost the majority of his knowledge at the Fall. These points may be argued, but certainly not proved. Thus, it can be seen that revelation can, and probably does (in my view) exist in a redeemed world, for redemption alone does not yield a full understanding of God. What redemption actually does is remove the obstacles that make revelation difficult, so that God can be perceived clearly. This is already partially true in the life of the Christian, for (s)he can see and understand things that once were merely foolishness. If this is true in the fallen body, how much more true will it be once we are glorified?
Hope this help
God bless
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
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michaelh2951
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RE
Thank you, it was very informative.
I am very interested in your notion of "natural revelation, in which we learn something of God through His creation". In your opinion, what have we learned through nature so far? Are you referring to concepts like intelligent design?
Additionally, is our world in general considered an un-redeemed world(or fallen world) where redemption is pending? By what physical event would this redemption be brought about?
I am very interested in your notion of "natural revelation, in which we learn something of God through His creation". In your opinion, what have we learned through nature so far? Are you referring to concepts like intelligent design?
Additionally, is our world in general considered an un-redeemed world(or fallen world) where redemption is pending? By what physical event would this redemption be brought about?
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Jac3510
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I think that intelligent design can certainly be inferred from natural revelation, but that's not really the whole of it. Keep in mind that revelation, whether special or natural, is an act whereby something is revealed to man. In the case of natural revelation, we find specific things out about God Himself.I am very interested in your notion of "natural revelation, in which we learn something of God through His creation". In your opinion, what have we learned through nature so far? Are you referring to concepts like intelligent design?
For example, in my opinion, natural revelation does teach us that God exists. The heavens declare the glory of God. You can, of course, attempt to explain away the revelation as something other than God, which is exactly what philosophical atheism tries to do. The Christian Apologist, then, takes natural revelation and systematizes it into ideas like the teleological argument, from which we get intelligent design. But, again, we see that nature, in general, clearly portrays God. He is clearly seen to be, though His features and personality are yet obscured. Thus, David was prompted to write that the fool says in his heart that there is no God!
Natural revelation teaches us that God is a God of order and design. The Moral Law is part of natural revelation, because it relates to the nature of man. This teaches us a great deal about God, because it forces us to recognize that God is Moral. He is a person. Natural revelation also teaches us that God is awesome, powerful, and sovereign. It teaches us that He appreciates beauty and diversity. It teaches us that there are consequences for misbehavior, and that He is not a God to be trifled with. It teaches us that He is to be feared. All this we can summarize by saying that nature reveals the attributes of God. It is intersting that the Greek philosophers were able to describe so well what God should be like. They talked about a Logos, a Prime Mover, and a Perfect Good. This, they learned from nature.
But, natural revelation is only partial. It doesn't tell us how to be saved from the sin it reveals. It doesn't tell us what God's name is or what He wants. That requires special revelation. Natural revelation is also obscured. Let me illustrate.
Suppose you are driving down the highway and you come across a traffic sign of some sort, but it is very foggy outside. You can't read it. Will that sign do you much good? No, it won't. It is there, but it is unreadable, or, at least, it is difficult to read. You could get the wrong message, or you could get the gist of the message, but it would be difficult for you to get the exact message perfectly.
The same is true with people. Prior to the Fall, man could perfectly read natural revelation. But, with the Fall came the Fog, so to speak. And that is exactly what men refuse to worship the True God, but it is also why they are condemned. Everyone knows, deep inside, the basics that God demands, because it has been revealed to the whole of humanity. But, our fallen nature has caused us to twist, ignore, or argue with that revelation.
Yes, our world is fallen and redemption is pending. In the strictest sense, this particular universe will not be redeemed. It has been condemned. But, men can be redeemed, and many will be. On the Day of Judgement, recorded by the Bible in many places, but especially Revelation 20, God will undue this whole universe. He then will create a new, unfallen world. In that world He will place His redeemed creations -- human beings.Additionally, is our world in general considered an un-redeemed world(or fallen world) where redemption is pending? By what physical event would this redemption be brought about?
Our redemption will come at the Resurrection. Jesus Christ rose from the dead, and as such, He will raise each of us. We will no longer have these fallen bodies, but we will be given new, incorruptible bodies to live in an incorruptible world.
It's late . . . hopefully I'm not rambling too much here
God bless
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue