Howcome..

[Jay77]

Howcome God made things like volcanos, earthquakes etc?

Also somebody brought up a point to me which is that out of the whole universe it isn't that hard to have at least one planet perfect for life, out of the many there are.. does this ruin the fine-tuning argument?

[IRQ Conflict]

Howcome God made things like volcanos, earthquakes etc?

I'm really not sure bout quakes, but volcanic activity actually increases landmass. So if it's not burying a city I see it as potentially a good thing.

Also somebody brought up a point to me which is that out of the whole universe it isn't that hard to have at least one planet perfect for life, out of the many there are.. does this ruin the fine-tuning argument?

If you believe we came into existence from nothing but random chance, then I suppose that fairy tale could be believed as well

[SUGAAAAA]

I dont think God "created" earthquakes/volcanoes just for the heck of it, but are just a result of the movement of the Earth's crust... So if He wants to move the land masses, earthquakes and volcanoes are bound to happen.



And about the Earth's conditions, it being able to support life is extremely unique, and many factors contribute to that as well... this article explains it quite well:

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/designss.html

[Jay77]

Thanks for the replys.

I know that the Earth is finely tuned, but isn't it bound to happen? With all the planets of coarse one of them is going to form correctly.

Btw im not questioning God, I'm just bringing it up to see if I can get a reply of what others think.

[Jac3510]

Thanks for the replys.

I know that the Earth is finely tuned, but isn't it bound to happen? With all the planets of coarse one of them is going to form correctly.

Btw im not questioning God, I'm just bringing it up to see if I can get a reply of what others think.

Well, if you take the maximum number of planets in the universe and compare it against the probability of life forming on ANY of them, the chances are one in 10^282. I wouldn't call that "bound" to happen

Reference

While you are at it, check out this link and this linke as well.
God bless

[BGoodForGoodSake]

Thanks for the replys.

I know that the Earth is finely tuned, but isn't it bound to happen? With all the planets of coarse one of them is going to form correctly.

Btw im not questioning God, I'm just bringing it up to see if I can get a reply of what others think.

Well, if you take the maximum number of planets in the universe and compare it against the probability of life forming on ANY of them, the chances are one in 10^282. I wouldn't call that "bound" to happen

Reference

While you are at it, check out this link and this linke as well.
God bless

Not to interrupt, only wanted to point this out.

We don't know any of these numbers. They are only guesses, you can say educated guesses but with the current lack of knowledge it isn't very "educated".

[Jac3510]

Yes, well the numbers come from secular papers for the most part. I suppose you could write each of the authors of the 200+ peer-reviewed papers and let them know that

[BGoodForGoodSake]

Yes, well the numbers come from secular papers for the most part. I suppose you could write each of the authors of the 200+ peer-reviewed papers and let them know that

What peer reviewed paper?

This?
Michael H. Hart, “Atmospheric Evolution, the Drake Equation, and DNA: Sparse Life in an Infinite Universe,” in Philosophical Cosmology and Philosophy, edited by John Leslie, (New York: Macmillan, 1990), pp. 256-266.

Or any number of scientific papers from which they only extracted numbers from?

There is nothing wrong with admitting that it is speculation.

[Jac3510]

No sir, this:

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257 individual references, on top of the 322 mentioned in the original work. These numbers are pulled from these papers. You say we shouldn't "speculate" on the probability. These men didn't think that was true, nor did the publications they submitted to

[BGoodForGoodSake]

No sir, this:

• All the references in Fine-Tuning of Physical Life Support Body by Hugh Ross (Pasadena, CA: Reasons To Believe, 2002) apply. What follows are references that are in addition to those.
  Ray White III and William C. Keel, “Direct Measurement of the Optical Depth in a Spiral Galaxy,” Nature, 359 (1992), pp. 129-130.

Did you look at the papers which were referenced?

Here the first one.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v3 ... DFDB2A6A20
IT WAS A LETTER TO NATURE.

FROM a statistical analysis of nearly 9,400 spiral galaxies1, Valentijn2 has claimed that the disks of spirals are largely opaque. His argument derives from a lack of inclination dependence in the average surface brightness of the spirals, which if they were transparent would be brighter when seen edge-on than face-on. This statistically derived result is however vulnerable to several selection effects3, and seems to contradict the fact that the survey was successfully performed (as we live in a transparent spiral galaxy) as well as anecdotal examples of galaxies visible through other galaxies. We have tried to measure directly optical extinction in a number of spiral disks, using pairs in which a foreground spiral is backlit by another galaxy. In our best example substantial extinction of starlight occurs, but the extinction is mostly associated with the spiral features in which much of the light arises in the first place. This correlation of extinction with emission may account for both the transparency and apparent opacity of spiral galaxies.

How did he use this in his paper on fine tuning?
???
Like I stated the first time, the numbers pulled from these papers were used in the speculation, not most of the numbers themselves. I doubt all these papers are about the fine tuning of the Universe. Would you like me to look at the second paper as well? Trust me you don't want me to.

Don't you think listing all of these papers in which the figures were pulled out of context is a little misleading? I doubt very many of these papers even detailed possibilities for the figures they reached. Do you?
So all of that is speculation on the part of the person who wrote you're supporting articles. The ranges and probabilities are all speculation none of which is supported by these references.

And lets take a look at the paper itself.
One of the factors mentioned was.
"orientation of continents relative to prevailing winds"
What does this mean and how did he arrive at that figure?
How does he know the orientation of the continents is required for the existance of life on Earth?

Or what about these?
"reduction of Kuiper Belt mass during planetary system's early history"
"mass of outer gas giant planet relative to inner gas giant planet"
Are they not related? Also the first question applies here, how does this figure into the probability of life on Earth?

Or these gems?
"galaxy size"
"galaxy type"
If it fits then it applies to all the stars in that galaxy? And again how is this required for life?

Or what about this one?
"oceans-to-continents ratio"
Does this mean if there is less or more water then life is impossible?!?!?!

This is just a cursory glance, I am sure there are many more instances of related factors and nonfactors which should not be blindly multiplied with other factors to arrive at a figure.

And check out this one from another of your supporting articles.
"parent star color"
if redder: photosynthetic response would be insufficient
if bluer: photosynthetic response would be insufficient
ROFL!!!
This would make some astronomers die of laughter.
Stars are categorized as red or blue based on their compositions and surface temperature.
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/a ... 625-1.html
All stars for the most part radiate the entire spectrum of light. For example our sun is a class G yellow star.
Go get a prism during a sunny day.
Do you get a rainbow?

Again there is nothing wrong with admitting that this is speculation, or are you really saying that we know the exact probabilities, can you really possess such audacity?

And yes, it is a pet peeve of mine to see articles on the internet with lists of references on the bottom which are completely misrepresented or have such weak connection to the topic in discussion. I find it intellectually misleading and utterly irritating.

[Jac3510]

Ah, my bad. You are right, of course. Absolutely every single one of those references provided are totally unrelated and not at all supportive of the data. Ross has falsified information, which is only natural, and he's purposefully misleading people. And it should be incredibly obvious that he should give a detailed explanation of every aspect listed on that site, even though he does that in his books and articles elsewhere.

Forgive the sarcasm, BGood, but incredulity won't get you anywhere. If you want to take the time to go through every single item referenced, then go for it. I, for one, have read Ross' work, and I know his credentials and background. Perhaps you have as well. Again, you can talk about speculation all you want, which is fine. That's up to you. But it's out of the mainstream.

Now, I am thoroughly aware that in the field of biological evolution philosophical naturalism has a death grip that is going to take a long time to get rid of. But, I'm also aware that, when it comes to astrophysics and cosmology in general, there is not nearly as much dogmatism. These people, who specialize in this field, consider this a very serious issue. Many an atheist have stated clearly that the fine tuning arguments are both valid and potentially convincing. They don't accept for other reasons, i.e., a multiverse theory. Again, that's up to them. But, at least they recognize the validity of the numbers.

That's the mainstream, BGood.

[BGoodForGoodSake]

Ah, my bad. You are right, of course. Absolutely every single one of those references provided are totally unrelated and not at all supportive of the data. Ross has falsified information, which is only natural, and he's purposefully misleading people. And it should be incredibly obvious that he should give a detailed explanation of every aspect listed on that site, even though he does that in his books and articles elsewhere.

Forgive the sarcasm, BGood, but incredulity won't get you anywhere. If you want to take the time to go through every single item referenced, then go for it. I, for one, have read Ross' work, and I know his credentials and background. Perhaps you have as well. Again, you can talk about speculation all you want, which is fine. That's up to you. But it's out of the mainstream.

Now, I am thoroughly aware that in the field of biological evolution philosophical naturalism has a death grip that is going to take a long time to get rid of. But, I'm also aware that, when it comes to astrophysics and cosmology in general, there is not nearly as much dogmatism. These people, who specialize in this field, consider this a very serious issue. Many an atheist have stated clearly that the fine tuning arguments are both valid and potentially convincing. They don't accept for other reasons, i.e., a multiverse theory. Again, that's up to them. But, at least they recognize the validity of the numbers.

That's the mainstream, BGood.

It is also mainstream that the Drake equation and other such equations have a high degree of error built in.

At this point it is best to refrain from stating that any results of such equations is anything remotely close to authorative and I am certain that many in the field whose papers were quoted who are not named Hugh Ross would agree.

As for his credentials, it's inconsequential. I don't suppose he has any expertise in astronomy or else he would not have made the parent star color faux pas. There is no need to mention that most of his sources are from astronomical sources. Also there appear to be many references to himself. Are those scientific peer reviewed papers? In astronomy? I highly doubt it.

To continue on his paper lets look at these points
58. Ratio of warm exotic matter density to cold exotic matter density
59. Ratio of hot exotic matter density to cold exotic matter density
What in the world is he refering to?

Also the first four items in this list.
Strong nuclear force constant
Weak nuclear force constant
Gravitational force constant
Electromagnetic force constant
Is he certain they are not dependant factors? In other words does the changing of one constant cause the other constants to change proportionally?

To go even farther is he certain that all of the factors mentioned are independant?

[Jay77]

Ok then thanks everyone..

[Jac3510]

That's fine, sir, but you are throwing the baby out with the bath water, so to speak. We are talking about a probabality less than the total number of atoms in the universe. I think it's safe to say there's an awful large margin of error, hmm?

See, you don't have to prove that the probabilities could be off. You have to prove that any of these are NOT IMPOROBABLE. And that, my good friend, simply can't be done. It may be difficult to put specific numbers to these, but even a cursory view at the list makes it obvious that the chances on all of these are going to be less, and some far less, than 1:1. Now, again, you need to recognize what astrophysicists have been recognizing for over a decade: at present, observations imply that this universe is highly improbable.

So, that's the observation. Rather than arguing against established fact, you should be searching for an advocating one of its many, many explanations out there.

Mainstream, BGood.

edit: I suggest you check his credentials, BGood. The main is VERY qualified. As for the references to himself, I've read many of his works. He footnotes everything. So, rather than redo the work, it follows to footnote yourself. You know better.

[BGoodForGoodSake]

That's fine, sir, but you are throwing the baby out with the bath water, so to speak. We are talking about a probabality less than the total number of atoms in the universe. I think it's safe to say there's an awful large margin of error, hmm?

See, you don't have to prove that the probabilities could be off. You have to prove that any of these are NOT IMPOROBABLE. And that, my good friend, simply can't be done. It may be difficult to put specific numbers to these, but even a cursory view at the list makes it obvious that the chances on all of these are going to be less, and some far less, than 1:1. Now, again, you need to recognize what astrophysicists have been recognizing for over a decade: at present, observations imply that this universe is highly improbable.

So, that's the observation. Rather than arguing against established fact, you should be searching for an advocating one of its many, many explanations out there.

Mainstream, BGood.

Again, as discussed in another post improbability does not imply design.

And again it's not estabilished fact, it's estabilished uncertainty, meaning we simply do not know.

And Jay to answer your question we don't know if there are other planets capable of life. There very well could be only one planet capable of life.