Pre-Trib contradicts the Bible

[jerickson314]

Follow the argument:

1.) Death is the last enemy that Christ will defeat:

For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

2.) The Resurrection of the dead will occur before the event identified as the "Rapture", when people will be taken to Heaven without death.

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God's trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first, then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.

3.) The Resurrection of the dead is the victory over death.

But when this corruptible will have put on incorruption, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then what is written will happen: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

4.) The victory over death will take place before the "Rapture." (follows logically from 2, 3)

5.) Satan is an enemy of God. (I don't really have to cite a verse for this one, do I?)

6.) The defeat of Satan must precede the "Rapture" (from 1, 4, 5).

7.) Satan will not be defeated until after the Millenium.

And after the thousand years, Satan will be released from his prison, and he will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to the war; the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

(This may explain 1 Corinthians 15:25 quite well.)

8.) Therefore, the Millenium must precede the "Rapture" (from 6, 7).

9.) The "Tribulation" precedes the Millenium.

I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as didn't worship the beast nor his image, and didn't receive the mark on their forehead and on their hand. They lived, and reigned with Christ for the thousand years.

10.) Therefore, the "Tribulation" must precede the "Rapture," separated by the Millenium at least.

I put "Tribulation" and "Rapture" in quotes because the common understanding of these terms is different from my partial preterist perspective, but the argument works even if futurism is assumed. In fact, the argument holds up all the more strongly if one demands literal interpretations of the Bible.

The idea of the final Resurrection being after the Millenium fits the partial preterist view quite well, though.

[Jac3510]

As they say, "Close, but no cigar!"

Your conclusion is exactly right: "The idea of the final Resurrection being after the Millennium fits the partial preterist view quite well, though." I thoroughly believe that the Millennium precedes the Resurrection!

I don't have time to go into detail with this right now . . . I still have to finish that paper I'm working on for you and PL (a little better than half way through. I'm also going to turn it in for a grade for my Theology II class, hence, the delay). Here's the short form.

Death is the final enemy defeated. This is recorded dramatically in Revelation 20:14. Notice that this occurs at the Great White Throne judgement. The problem you have is that you assume there is only one resurrection. There are, in fact, two. There is the resurrection of the righteous (which is progressive), and there is the resurrection of the wicked (a one time event). The former began with Christ's Resurrection (thus, He is the "firstborn"), continued with the emptying of paradise, will continue with the Rapture, and will culminate with the Second Coming. That idea can be tweaked a bit, but pretty much every premillennialist holds to that framework. The resurrection of the wicked, though, occurs all at once, at the Great White Throne judgement. It is there the death will finally be defeated. That is the very last thing Christ will do before establishing His eternal Kingdom (all this after the Millennium).

I can explain more if necessary. Right now, I have to go to class.

God bless

[Sean 2]

As they say, "Close, but no cigar!"

Your conclusion is exactly right: "The idea of the final Resurrection being after the Millennium fits the partial preterist view quite well, though." I thoroughly believe that the Millennium precedes the Resurrection!

I don't have time to go into detail with this right now . . . I still have to finish that paper I'm working on for you and PL (a little better than half way through. I'm also going to turn it in for a grade for my Theology II class, hence, the delay). Here's the short form.

Death is the final enemy defeated. This is recorded dramatically in Revelation 20:14. Notice that this occurs at the Great White Throne judgement. The problem you have is that you assume there is only one resurrection. There are, in fact, two. There is the resurrection of the righteous (which is progressive), and there is the resurrection of the wicked (a one time event). The former began with Christ's Resurrection (thus, He is the "firstborn"), continued with the emptying of paradise, will continue with the Rapture, and will culminate with the Second Coming. That idea can be tweaked a bit, but pretty much every premillennialist holds to that framework. The resurrection of the wicked, though, occurs all at once, at the Great White Throne judgement. It is there the death will finally be defeated. That is the very last thing Christ will do before establishing His eternal Kingdom (all this after the Millennium).

I can explain more if necessary. Right now, I have to go to class.

God bless

The only problem is that Jesus spoke of two resurrections. One of being born again and the other being physical. The physical one is the time when ALL who are in the tombs come out and are judged, some to "life" and some to "death".

Joh 5:25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
Joh 5:28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice
Joh 5:29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Jesus said this again here:
Mat 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
Mat 25:32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Judgement of both happen at the same time.


Paul also spoke of one resurrection (Acts 24:15) and I think clearly stated this in 1 Corinthians 15, because he is discussing the order of resurrection(s). It goes Chirst, then those who are Christ's at his coming, then that's the end (Rev 21 and the eternal state). Jesus or Paul didn't seem to know of multiple resurrections of righteous or wicked.

I'm Amil, in case you are wondering.

[smrpgx]

I whole-heartedly agree with the topic starter. The following verse proves the post-tribulation rapture.

2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a mighty roar and the elements will be dissolved by fire, and the earth and everything done on it will be found out. 11 Since everything is to be dissolved in this way, what sort of persons ought (you) to be, conducting yourselves in holiness and devotion, 12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved in flames and the elements melted by fire.