Kissing cousins

IRQ Conflict · Post by **IRQ Conflict** » Sat Feb 11, 2006 7:03 pm

Does the Bible forbid marrying your cousin? If not, where does this taboo stem from?

Judah · Post by **Judah** » Sat Feb 11, 2006 9:29 pm

I do not believe the Bible prohibits marriage between first cousins - unless you can take the general statement of Leviticus 18:6 "No one is to approach any close relative to have sexual relations..." although I would have thought that one's widowed brother-in-law/sister-in-law is a close relative (although not a blood relative) and marriage in that case is encouraged in Mosaic Law.

Certainly the law in my own country allows it, and I suspect that is true for most countries of Judeo-Christian background.

What is the taboo? I do not know of one.
I do think that, if there may be a possibility of a detrimental familial genetic disorder occurring in children of two married first cousins, then genetic counselling is advisable.
But I know of no law forbidding such a marriage.

IRQ Conflict · Post by **IRQ Conflict** » Sun Feb 12, 2006 12:08 am

Thanks Judah, Although legal throught Canada, 24 of the States have it so it's illegal, not sure why. I belive Mary and Joseph were first cousins iirc.

The genetic issue is a paltry 3% or so higher risk with close relations like that. Not brother / sister mind you, that is stricktly forbiden.

The reason I ask is because my sisters daughter (my niece) hooked up with a cousin on her dads side of the family, she just met him last year and they have been together since. My wife is sickened by this so I am endevouring to prove to her that there is no Biblical law that condems it. I think.

I was never attracted to any of my cousins...some of thier freinds were cute tho....erm...

Edit: I looked it up and it does not say sexual relations, it say's nakedness. Although to have sex one must uncover the nakedness so....

Lev 18:6 None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness: I am the LORD.

Judah · Post by **Judah** » Sun Feb 12, 2006 1:08 am

Hmm, I quoted directly from my NIV study Bible, and it says "sexual relations" but I suspect it is considered that one thing leads to another, or is simply considered inappropriate behaviour unless married (which then permits sexual relations).

Can your wife say more explicitly why she is sickened by the thought? I guess she must regard it as incestuous - but why? What is the basis for her reaction? It might be helpful if she could think about that and then consider if it is really reasonable to continue holding that view given that Scripture does not appear to condemn it.

I have in front of me "A Table of Kindred and Affinity wherein whosever are related are forbidden by the Church of England to marry together" and there is a list that includes all those mentioned in Leviticus, at least all those I can find, and first cousins are not on that list anywhere.
I haven't found anywhere in those OT chapters where cousins get the thumbs down.

Maybe someone like August or Jac might be able to add to this.

IRQ Conflict · Post by **IRQ Conflict** » Sun Feb 12, 2006 1:18 am

Thanks Judah, I think my wife thinks of it as incestuous? I don't like talking to her when she has her mind set on something, and I don't yet have suffient proof. Too much like my mother I think hehe

Judah · Post by **Judah** » Sun Feb 12, 2006 1:25 am

Go carefully then, IRQ!

Best of luck, and watch when to duck.

August · Post by **August** » Sun Feb 12, 2006 6:08 am

http://www.neverthirsty.org/pp/corner/read1/r00366.html

http://www.biblestudy.org/question/marrels.html

http://www.minuteswithmessiah.com/quest ... ousin.html

http://www.probe.org/content/view/263/47

http://www.christianmarriage.com/home/m ... cle&sid=59

The consensus seems to be that it is Biblically ok. I tried to find arguments against, but nothing credible came up.

IRQ Conflict · Post by **IRQ Conflict** » Sun Feb 12, 2006 11:30 am

Thanks a bunch August! Being evolution Sunday and all Im gonna go git religuos on her butt!

Our Father who art in heaven, protect me from being hit.....

bizzt · Post by **bizzt** » Mon Feb 13, 2006 10:41 am

IRQ Conflict wrote:Thanks Judah, Although legal throught Canada, 24 of the States have it so it's illegal, not sure why. I belive Mary and Joseph were first cousins iirc.

I think you are wrong about Mary and Joseph as their Family Branched off from Each other right at David.

IRQ Conflict · Post by **IRQ Conflict** » Mon Feb 13, 2006 11:43 am

Your probably right, I based that on a rumor more than anything.

voicingmaster · Post by **voicingmaster** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 6:16 pm

Christians don't follow OT law. If they did, they'd follow the kosher laws, and everything else in the OT, which Christians don't follow. There's no reason why that verse about incest is any exception. And there's no verse in the NT about incest, so logically incest is just fine, biblically speaking.

Although, it isn't exactly right, ethically. I mean, if they get pregnant, that's a pretty good chance that that kid will be handicapped or just ugly, which isn't exactly right to violate a kid's right simply b/c you like your cousin.
And it kinda distorts the view of family. It's just a little weird to see your cousin as a potential mate. Although, this one is more my opinion that anything else.

As for me personally, I'm not gonna lie, I have seen my cousin as attractive. Although, I never acted on it.

IRQ Conflict · Post by **IRQ Conflict** » Tue Feb 21, 2006 4:44 am

Christians don't follow OT law

Yes we do!

voicingmaster · Post by **voicingmaster** » Tue Feb 21, 2006 2:41 pm

You don't follow the Kosher laws, or any of the other cleanliness laws, you work on the Sabbath, and you don't get circumsised. Therefore, you don't follow the OT, just the NT.

kateliz · Post by **kateliz** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 9:56 pm

I've been over this issue, having had a non-blood relative, (through two marriages,) as a boyfriend for three weeks in '98.

We met at a mutual relative's birthday party!

Silly as it was, it got me paying attention to the Bible verses on marrying relatives I've come across since.

True, there were first cousin marriages in the OT, but that doesn't mean God condoned it. A lot is reported in the OT that is a sin yet God doesn't bother to call it that or strike down the ones who committed it. It really is a shame I don't have the internet at home- I always find myself writing responses on here without my resources on hand. *shakes head* I believe I did run across a verse in the OT that forbade first cousin marriages. Where it is or what is says I have no idea. I only vaguely remember running across it once.

Hmmm. Found something that might contradict my vague memory:Numbers 36: 1 - 13"1 And R987 the heads of the fathers' {households} of the family of the sons of Gilead, the son of Machir, the son of Manasseh, of the families of the sons of Joseph, came near and spoke before Moses and before the leaders, the heads of the fathers' {households} of the sons of Israel, 2 and they said, "The LORD commanded my lord to give the land by lot to the sons of Israel as an inheritance, and my lord was R988 commanded by the LORD to give the inheritance of Zelophehad our brother to his daughters. 3 "But if they marry F481 one of the sons of the {other} tribes of the sons of Israel, their inheritance will be withdrawn from the inheritance of our fathers and will be added to the inheritance of the tribe to which they belong; thus it will be withdrawn from our allotted inheritance. 4 "When the jubilee R989 of the sons of Israel comes, F482 then their inheritance will be added to the inheritance of the tribe to which they belong; so their inheritance will be withdrawn from the inheritance of the tribe of our fathers." 5 Then Moses commanded the sons of Israel according to the word F483 of the LORD, saying, "The tribe of the sons of Joseph are right in {their} statements. 6 " R990 This is what F484 the LORD has commanded concerning the daughters of Zelophehad, saying, 'Let them marry whom F485 they wish; only they must marry within the family of the tribe of their father.' 7 "Thus no R991 inheritance of the sons of Israel shall be F486 transferred from tribe to tribe, for the sons of Israel shall each hold F487 to the inheritance of the tribe of his fathers. 8 " R992 Every daughter who comes into possession of an inheritance of any tribe of the sons of Israel shall be wife to one of the family of the tribe of her father, so that the sons of Israel each may possess the inheritance of his fathers. 9 "Thus no inheritance shall be F488 transferred from one tribe to another tribe, for the tribes of the sons of Israel shall each hold F489 to his own inheritance." 10 Just as the LORD had commanded Moses, so the daughters of Zelophehad did: 11 Mahlah, R993 Tirzah, Hoglah, Milcah and Noah, the daughters of Zelophehad married their uncles' sons. 12 They married {those} from the families of the sons of Manasseh the son of Joseph, and their inheritance remained F490 with the tribe of the family of their father. 13 These R994 are the commandments and the ordinances which the LORD commanded to the sons of Israel through Moses in the plains of Moab by the Jordan {opposite} Jericho."

Unless it wasn't revealed yet at that point in time that it's a sin to marry first-cousins, it appears this would support it. God has been revealing things slowly throughout time. And He didn't always point it out to people when they were sinning, or at least it wasn't recorded in the Bible that He did in every case. For example: Matthew 19:6-8 6"So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate." 7They said to Him, "(A)Why then did Moses command to GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY?" 8He said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way." Jesus here says that the revelation of sins can be progressive. It was the same way with His announcement that looking at a woman to lust after her was adultery. This had not been revealed as a sin before then. Well, to God-fearing people's hearts, but not publically declared.

But, here again though, is an instance where it is not prohibited:Leviticus 18
1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'I am the LORD your God. 3 You must not do as they do in Egypt, where you used to live, and you must not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. Do not follow their practices. 4 You must obey my laws and be careful to follow my decrees. I am the LORD your God. 5 Keep my decrees and laws, for the man who obeys them will live by them. I am the LORD. 6 " 'No one is to approach any close relative to have sexual relations. I am the LORD. 7 " 'Do not dishonor your father by having sexual relations with your mother. She is your mother; do not have relations with her. 8 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your father's wife; that would dishonor your father. 9 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your sister, either your father's daughter or your mother's daughter, whether she was born in the same home or elsewhere. 10 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your son's daughter or your daughter's daughter; that would dishonor you. 11 " 'Do not have sexual relations with the daughter of your father's wife, born to your father; she is your sister. 12 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your father's sister; she is your father's close relative. 13 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your mother's sister, because she is your mother's close relative. 14 " 'Do not dishonor your father's brother by approaching his wife to have sexual relations; she is your aunt. 15 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your daughter-in-law. She is your son's wife; do not have relations with her. 16 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your brother's wife; that would dishonor your brother. 17 " 'Do not have sexual relations with both a woman and her daughter. Do not have sexual relations with either her son's daughter or her daughter's daughter; they are her close relatives. That is wickedness. 18 " 'Do not take your wife's sister as a rival wife and have sexual relations with her while your wife is living. 19 " 'Do not approach a woman to have sexual relations during the uncleanness of her monthly period. 20 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your neighbor's wife and defile yourself with her. 21 " 'Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed [a] to Molech, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the LORD. 22 " 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable. 23 " 'Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion. 24 " 'Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled. 25 Even the land was defiled; so I punished it for its sin, and the land vomited out its inhabitants. 26 But you must keep my decrees and my laws. The native-born and the aliens living among you must not do any of these detestable things, 27 for all these things were done by the people who lived in the land before you, and the land became defiled. 28 And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you. 29 " 'Everyone who does any of these detestable things—such persons must be cut off from their people. 30 Keep my requirements and do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. I am the LORD your God.' "

And here's an interesting Christian commentary on it, (however, they say that while it might be illegal in some US states, it's not a sin. The Bible makes it clear that we are to obey the laws of the land we live in. I don't like how they say that):http://www.christianmarriage.com/home/m ... cle&sid=59

And another Google find:http://www.neverthirsty.org/pp/corner/read1/r00366.html

My extensive research (ha!) has led me to the loose conclusion that it is not declared a sin in the Bible. However, it would be if your conscience is pricked by it. Where's that one verse in the NT that states that if you regard something as a sin even if it isn't, it would be sinful for you to do?

Interesting to learn all this. Thanks for the lesson.

IRQ Conflict · Post by **IRQ Conflict** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:10 am

voicingmaster wrote:You don't follow the Kosher laws, or any of the other cleanliness laws, you work on the Sabbath, and you don't get circumsised. Therefore, you don't follow the OT, just the NT.

Haha! I work on Sunday and have Saturday off. I'm circumcised as is my son and my dad and probably his dad.

Not that I follow the old laws as in religious practices. I do eat pork once in a while.

Kateliz, thank you, thats much more thorough than I would have done, as long as your having fun.