How so? Btw Scripture is clear God created "everything". If true then this would include death and pain.IRQ Conflict wrote:The very idea that Gen 1 was refering to long or undefined periods of time undermines the doctrine of sin /death /redemption.
IRQ Conflict wrote:I cannot. AiG suggests that the animals Adam named were in fact less tha what I had thought, as in the hundreds perhaps? I thought he named all the species, but apparently not, I'll have to look into this further. Can you explain to me how it was that Christ raised himself from the dead? How can you explain the mental prowess of certain savants? Asking questions that have no answers to them prove nothing.Canuckster1127 wrote:With you're own words... Please explain to me how Adam did this in 24 hours. See what I mean about selective hermeneutics?
Regarding your previous post, I have a good sense of humour. Please don't hesitate to use yours, I won't be offended.
All your statements seem wonderfull and we all appreciate your time. But without substance they mean nothing. That is I need links or Scripture(s) to study, to know what your saying has any factual basis to them whatsoever or is it just thoughts from yourself.
One BIG concern I have with your train of thought is the doctrinal issues that seem to arise from this. Such as was pointed out at AiG-
linknow if the garden were sitting on a fossil record of dead things millions of years old, then there was the shedding of blood before sin. This would destroy the foundation of the atonement. The Bible is clear: the sin of Adam brought death and suffering into the world. As Romans 8:19—22 tells us, the whole of creation 'groans' because of the effects of the Fall of Adam, and will be liberated 'from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God' (verse 21). Also, bear in mind that thorns came into existence after the Curse. Because there are thorns in the fossil record, it had to be formed after Adam and Eve sinned.
The very idea that Gen 1 was refering to long or undefined periods of time undermines the doctrine of sin /death /redemption.
Well, I suspect you are more familiar with these than what you let on. As to my prior post, it has more to do with history than that which can be proof texted. Why don't you tell me what you're having difficulty seeing or accepting and I'll focus on that.
Sorry, I originally posted this thinking you were IRQ.KMart wrote:But one must show that death is a thing and not the abscence of something else. I do believe this is how Augustus got around the so called problem of evil. And I'm hijacking the plane. Allah Akbar.
No dispute on pain with you though...
Canuckster,Canuckster1127 wrote:As to your comments relating to death, my answer is simple. The hebrew concept of death equated with separation from God. The answer is tied into the same answer that I suspect you would give if someone were to ask why when God told Adam and Eve they would die when they ate the fruit. Did they die instantly? Obviously the answer is both yes and no. Yes, they experienced immediate spiritual death as evidenced by their shame in God's presence. I believe death entered into human existence in that moment as well physically, but later on. Over 900 years later on as far as Adam and eve were concerned.
So, you put the death of all the animals over millions of years (unsupported by the geologic column) squarely on the shoulders of how ancient Hebrews view death?Canuckster1127 wrote:As to your comments relating to death, my answer is simple. The hebrew concept of death equated with separation from God. The answer is tied into the same answer that I suspect you would give if someone were to ask why when God told Adam and Eve they would die when they ate the fruit. Did they die instantly? Obviously the answer is both yes and no. Yes, they experienced immediate spiritual death as evidenced by their shame in God's presence. I believe death entered into human existence in that moment as well physically, but later on. Over 900 years later on as far as Adam and eve were concerned.
Where is this written?God created living creatures with the intention of them to one day die, for this is how God designed the physical laws of our world to work.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.Kurieuo wrote:How so? Btw Scripture is clear God created "everything". If true then this would include death and pain.IRQ Conflict wrote:The very idea that Gen 1 was refering to long or undefined periods of time undermines the doctrine of sin /death /redemption.
Kurieuo
Hear that Kmart? Your chopped liver dood!Also this is somewhat irrelevant now since I thought I was replying to IRQ...
Have you not heard the saying, "never read a Bible verse?"IRQ Conflict wrote:1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.Kurieuo wrote:How so? Btw Scripture is clear God created "everything". If true then this would include death and pain.IRQ Conflict wrote:The very idea that Gen 1 was refering to long or undefined periods of time undermines the doctrine of sin /death /redemption.
Kurieuo
Mar 3:24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
Isn't Paul talking within the context of being freed from God's judgement via the resurrection? He writes:I would be carefull with this.Furthermore, God Himself is implicated as being responsible for death.
Now, it seems that sequentially the 1st day follows the 2nd day & 2nd day follows the 3rd day etc. Secondly, I think (a supposition) we'd all agree with Canuckster1127 from the quote above that the “length of time which are roughly equal in light & darkness”.Canuckster1127 wrote: God did create Time. Further, God is outside of the constraints of time. If Day 1, 2, and 3 were absent any celestial bodies how then do you assert that they are literal 24 hour days? Evening and morning in this context might mean any length of time which are roughly equal in light and darkness.
I'm not sure if I'm just missing something here but the above quote says “let's look at what evening and morning are not. They are not actual evening and mornings, as this requires a sunrise and sunset”. I don't understand what you mean that they are not actual 'evenings & mornings'? What are they then? Gen 1:4-5 says: “And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day”. God says He divided the light from the darkness and said “the evening & the morning were the first day”. Why is this disputable? Why does this require 'sun'rise & 'sun'set”? He says he simply divided the light that He said to “be” from the darkness and then on the 4th day He made 2 great lights, the greater light to 'rule' (- משׁל dominion or power to rule) the day, and the lesser light to 'rule' (- משׁל dominion or power to rule) the night. They (the great lights) were given the job of maintaining what God had already done on the the 1st day to ensure the continuation of evening and morning? I'm trying but I can't understand your comment. Could you please elaborate?“First, let's look at what evening and morning are not. They are not actual evening and mornings, as this requires a sunrise and sunset. According to young earth theory, the Sun was not created until Day Four, thus there could be no sunrise or sunset for the first three days of creation. However, God uses the terms evening and morning for those first three days. Therefore, they cannot be actual evenings and mornings.”
We are being careful with it. Also Biblical. Do you have a Biblical response other than repeating your linking of Genesis with Romans 5:12? The Hebrew concept of death is far different than the understanding I think you are superimposing on the text. Should we accept what you see as a plain understanding in English despite the problems it raises throughout the rest of Scripture or should we seek to understand it in the context that the original hearers understood it and grasp what they understood death to mean?IRQ Conflict wrote:I would be carefull with this.Furthermore, God Himself is implicated as being responsible for death.
_______________________________________Shortcake wrote:Yom, an interesting topic. As I've seen this thread develop with the different views, I've been quite fascinated. All seem to be concerned with 'how long a yom is'. I'd like to throw my penny into the pot if I may. I really believe that we can and do learn from one another, both giving and receiving, that's what we're suppose to do for each other. So, if you'll bear with me, here goes.
I see here that some believe that yom = a firm unbending 24hr time frame while others seem not so sure as to what they believe it is, whether it be weeks, months, years or millennia. Is this right?
I'd like to pick up on one point for a moment:Now, it seems that sequentially the 1st day follows the 2nd day & 2nd day follows the 3rd day etc. Secondly, I think (a supposition) we'd all agree with Canuckster1127 from the quote above that the “length of time which are roughly equal in light & darkness”.Canuckster1127 wrote: God did create Time. Further, God is outside of the constraints of time. If Day 1, 2, and 3 were absent any celestial bodies how then do you assert that they are literal 24 hour days? Evening and morning in this context might mean any length of time which are roughly equal in light and darkness.
Without a Sun until day four (as YECs interpret Genesis 1) there can be no end or beginning of day—there can be no day. As Rich explains: "The Hebrew word ereb, translated evening also means "sunset," "night" or "ending of the day." The Hebrew word boqer, translated morning, also means "sunrise," "coming of light," "beginning of the day," or "dawning," with possible metaphoric usage. (Biblical Evidence for Long Creation Days—recommend!)Shortcake wrote:I'm not sure if I'm just missing something here but the above quote says “let's look at what evening and morning are not. They are not actual evening and mornings, as this requires a sunrise and sunset”. I don't understand what you mean that they are not actual 'evenings & mornings'?