Does our spirit die when we die?

[Christian2]

Is there a difference between our spirit and our souls or are they the same thing?

I always thought that only our bodies die and that our soul lives or sleeps.

Thanks.

[Jac3510]

Very good question. There are really two basic views . . . dichotomy teaches that man is made up of the material and the immaterial. He has two parts. Trichotomy teaches that man is made up of three parts: body, soul, and spirit.

I'm actually all over the board on this one . I'm definitely a dichotomist in that I believe man is materal/immaterial. But, really I'd say I'm a polychotomist, as I think that you can make several distinctions in the immaterial far beyond just soul/spirit . . . heart, will, conscience, etc. are all apparently different arenas.

Yet further, for the last month I've been considering a sort of reformed trichotomy. It seems to me that when a person is born again, there is a new man born in him, but the old still remains, and will until death. The old man seeks to fulfill the lusts of the flesh, while the new man seeks only to follow the will of God. The former is natural, the latter is spiritual. When we die, we will finally cast off our old self and be given glorified bodies that are in harmony with our new selves, as created in Christ Jesus.

If this is the case, though, what is it in man that decides which compulsion to obey? If there is at work in me both the law of the flesh and the law of the spirit, and I am to decide which to follow, what are each of these? So, it seems reasonable that the unsaved man is strictly di/polychotomal. The believer in Christ, though, could be seen as tri/polychotomal, for he would have:

1. The body (old man)
2. The immaterial (the "I")
3. The new creation (the redeemed new man)

Ultimately, this scheme may fail as I have to figure out how regeneration would affect this, but we'll see. It's still up for grabs. I know there are those here who reject the two-natures argument, for they see it as gnostic. I understand the argument, but I don't think that's the big issues.

Anyway, so those are the positions broadly held, and you can decide for yourself what you think best fits the evidence. You can read a good, brief article on the question here:

http://www.gotquestions.org/body-soul-spirit.html

As for soul sleep, that's an entirely different issue. I don't buy it, myself, but many do.

God bless

[Christian2]

Hi Jac,

Thank you for your response. I spent some time looking at articles on the Internet and came across some discussion board discussing this subject. There are a variety of views as you pointed out.

The article you recommended was helpful:

What precisely are the differences between the soul and spirit? Scripture isn't entirely clear; the meanings seem to overlap in some areas. There is a difference between the two, that is clear, "For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart” (Hebrews 4:12).

Jesus seems to believe that the soul can either continue to live (in heaven) or die (in hell).

Matthew 10:28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

If we look at Jesus' death for an answer about whether the soul dies, maybe this Scripture gives us a clue:

1 Peter 3:18-20

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

Since Jesus' body was still in the tomb during this period, it looks like His soul went to hell and preached to "the spirits in prison." The conclusion being that Jesus' soul did not die when His body died.

Heaven = God Consciousness...Soul
Hell = Self Consciousness...Spirit---Ego

Fear him that can destroy the Soul (your God Consciousness).

C2

[Byblos]

Heaven = God Consciousness...Soul
Hell = Self Consciousness...Spirit---Ego

Fear him that can destroy the Soul (your God Consciousness).

C2

Never thought of it this way. Very interesting indeed, thanks. We'll have to explore this further.

[B. W.]

Heaven = God Consciousness...Soul
Hell = Self Consciousness...Spirit---Ego

Fear him that can destroy the Soul (your God Consciousness).

C2

Never thought of it this way. Very interesting indeed, thanks. We'll have to explore this further.

Yes - interesting - Christian2 - can you explain these further:

Heaven = God Consciousness...Soul
Hell = Self Consciousness...Spirit---Ego
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[Cook]

A good thread, this is a topic that has had an interest for me in recent years. I was always taught about the soul, and the word "spirit" seemed interchangeable with that, but since then I've started to see a difference, and I would say I'm a "trichotomist".

We know we're made in God's image, even from the earliest scriptures. And when Jesus was challenged about whether to give tribute to Caesar, he asked for a coin, and noting the superscription of Caesar, answered, "Render to Caesar what is Caesar's and render to God what is God's." I've always tremendously admired the wisdom wrapped in this one sentence: that we have this material world and it's obligations -- the side of life that is body-centric -- but we also have the superscription of God on us and the Master has taught us to render ourselves back to God with it -- be spirit-centric. That is my perception of the teaching at least. Also that there is this image of God in us but it isn't automatic that we render back, that is choice.

We're taught that our bodies are the temples or tabernacles of God. And that there is a "true light which lights every man who comes into the world." To me that would be the spirit part -- some of God himself he has put into all of us.

One of the most notable developments of this line of thinking is the inner light concept of Quakerism:

http://www2.gol.com/users/quakers/inner_light.htm

Yes, the equation "Heaven = God Consciousness...Soul" .... how to arrive at God-consciousness and soul growth? I can tend to see increase in God-consciousness as the same as growth of the soul. If God is a part of all of us then it would be a matter of becoming spirit-taught by this image of God within, becoming "like a little child" in awareness of how there is a part of the Father in us and to yield to it to render back to Him fruits of the spirit.

[B. W.]

A good thread, this is a topic that has had an interest for me in recent years. I was always taught about the soul, and the word "spirit" seemed interchangeable with that, but since then I've started to see a difference, and I would say I'm a "trichotomist".

We know we're made in God's image, even from the earliest scriptures. And when Jesus was challenged about whether to give tribute to Caesar, he asked for a coin, and noting the superscription of Caesar, answered, "Render to Caesar what is Caesar's and render to God what is God's." I've always tremendously admired the wisdom wrapped in this one sentence: that we have this material world and it's obligations -- the side of life that is body-centric -- but we also have the superscription of God on us and the Master has taught us to render ourselves back to God with it -- be spirit-centric. That is my perception of the teaching at least. Also that there is this image of God in us but it isn't automatic that we render back, that is choice.

We're taught that our bodies are the temples or tabernacles of God. And that there is a "true light which lights every man who comes into the world." To me that would be the spirit part -- some of God himself he has put into all of us.

One of the most notable developments of this line of thinking is the inner light concept of Quakerism:

http://www2.gol.com/users/quakers/inner_light.htm

Yes, the equation "Heaven = God Consciousness...Soul" .... how to arrive at God-consciousness and soul growth? I can tend to see increase in God-consciousness as the same as growth of the soul. If God is a part of all of us then it would be a matter of becoming spirit-taught by this image of God within, becoming "like a little child" in awareness of how there is a part of the Father in us and to yield to it to render back to Him fruits of the spirit.

Throughout Church History, many Christians expressed this belief that the 'Kingdom of God was within' and therefore certain sects of Christian Mysticism was born which looked to what you described, “then it would be a matter of becoming spirit-taught by this image of God within, becoming "like a little child" in awareness of how there is a part of the Father in us and to yield to it to render back to Him fruits of the spirit.”

That is the general thrust of Christian Mysticism. Many went astray and others remained orthodox and left a good record of what this means. Others went over the deep end. I would suggest doing a historical study on the subject and reflecting whom of these people left a good fruit from this experience and look at what they wrote. Those that did not go astray stood fast on scripture and taught to not give credence to ecstastatical experience alone as proof of finding God in the Christian Mystical tradition.

Anyone else like to add more?

[Cook]

Thanks for the extra info, and yes, always the excellent suggestion: what are the fruits! To suggest that "orthodox" is on one hand and to "go astray" is the alternative is not so much a true distinction however or a safe method of discernment. Many have been led astray by "orthodoxy", led into self-righteousness and sclerotic belief, the classic example being the Pharisees and Sadducees who were ultra-orthodox. Not all who say "Lord, Lord" will be saved.

I've studied Quakerism (among many other religions, don't get me wrong about over emphasizing here), and actually don't see this ecstatical element, hence a little more of a post on this side topic. Perhaps you are lumping it into a more general category of mysticism, but what the fruits are:

Peace and non-violence -- in 1947 Quakerism was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize, and prior their writings had a strong influence on Thoreau's highly influential "Civil Disobedience" work and the satyagrahi beliefs of Gandhi

Equality -- from the belief that all are children of God through the gift of His presence, all are equal in His sight... whereas "orthodox" preachers in the US south taught that slavery was ordained by scripture -- nothing to lead astray there -- Quakers were activist leaders against slavery, and similarly were leaders for women to have full rights like men. From personal experince, the conservative Lutheran denomination of my upbringing doesn't even allow women to give a sermon still, so this isn't a place where orthodoxy looks advantageous to me, depriving congregants of half the faith viewpoint of humanity.

Integrity -- having God in you means absolute commitment to truth. That God should be placed at the center of your life, and nothing else: money, self, ego, "things". Most here are probably acquainted with how Quakers will not swear or take an oath. Truth should always be spoken, not just when under oath.

And more! Just to point out some outcomes of believing that God is in you and in the people around you. They have their "testimonies" online, well worth a read, I agree with your suggestion that investigation is warranted to get the real picture.

But what are your views about the difference between spirit and soul (or whether there is one)? I didn't intend to fork the discussion, but did feel your last quote wasn't quite adequate treatment of the viewpoint I raised. For instance that the "Kingdom of God is within" is mysticism when it is a teaching of Jesus... you say "many Christians" express the belief, the curious thing to me is why not all? Do you think that God is in you and when you pray to God he is trying to answer and lead you, or do you feel he only led the people in past ages who wrote words that were collected into scripture by later people?

And if He is leading then is this His spirit doing the leading? Is this another thing from "soul"?

Again, my whole point with mentioning Quakerism is that I recognize in their teachings a "spirit" vs. "soul" distinction. Also would be curious as well if anybody knows of other flavors of belief with distinctive sense of "spirit".

[Carico]

The flesh rots and dies, but the spirit inside of us is always eternal. The Holy Spirit leads us to eternal glory and the spirit of the devil leads us to eternal torment. I find it interesting though, that the ones who defy God the most are the ones who complain the loudest about eternal torment. I can understand why they're afraid.

[B. W.]

But what are your views about the difference between spirit and soul (or whether there is one)? I didn't intend to fork the discussion, but did feel your last quote wasn't quite adequate treatment of the viewpoint I raised. For instance that the "Kingdom of God is within" is mysticism when it is a teaching of Jesus... you say "many Christians" express the belief, the curious thing to me is why not all? Do you think that God is in you and when you pray to God he is trying to answer and lead you, or do you feel he only led the people in past ages who wrote words that were collected into scripture by later people?

And if He is leading then is this His spirit doing the leading? Is this another thing from "soul"?

Again, my whole point with mentioning Quakerism is that I recognize in their teachings a "spirit" vs. "soul" distinction. Also would be curious as well if anybody knows of other flavors of belief with distinctive sense of "spirit".

Greetings Cook! Do not mind the grammer errors - I am typing fast!

I did not intend to be misleading in the quote you cited. I have tons of reference on the subject but would rather anyone interested in Christian Mysticism to look up what they believed about and use caution and tact to distinguish right and wrong regarding the matter.

I will give you a brief summery of what many of the Christian Mystic's, who stayed true to scripture, overall viewpoint on — “the kingdom of God is within you” as well as “Christ in you — the Hope of Glory.”

What many left recorded in their writings concerning, “the kingdom of God is within you.” Was not that the seeker of God is to strain unduly and struggle to look for God within as this could lead to finding a God of one's on making. Instead — you are to look for God everywhere and nowhere. For it is everywhere you'll see his handiworks and no-where is where you'll find God in Spirit and truth. Your Spirit and soul engages God in the no-where.

The No-where was described as a cloud on unknowing between you and God. Sin separated one from God and must be dealt with as proscribed in scripture and Holy Sacraments. Holy Sacraments were not the means to God but for remembrance of God's dealing with Humanity and us personally.

Contemplating who God is, Our sins, Christ's Passion, the Holy Sacraments, Heroes from old and new testament (hence saints-like Peter and Paul), were to be used as a reminder to meditate upon to chip away this cloud between God and man. The need to chip away selfishness is vitally important.

These stages are described as the path to find God. The stages can only occur to them who are Born Again. They lead one to meet with God in Spirit, soul, and body and thus join in union of Spirit, however fleeting or long, finding and uniting with God's nature, entire nature summed up by his love.

Basically, they teach — deny self and take up thy cross and follow Jesus so you can find Him in union of Spirit, Soul, and body. The process is similar to when Jacob wrestled with God and had His hip (the seat of power to walk on your own) broken. In other words, it is painful to lose self and rely upon the Lord but a lesson needed to learn. A true Christian Mystic seeks after this in a rational manner and is quite about it. It is a life long process coming and going as God wills.

You will read that they describe 'a dark night of the soul.' 'The Dark night of the soul' actually means' the obscure darkness of the soul' and the process taken to remove this darkness between you and God. At God's own invite, He will send rays of light- love- and call a seeker into the intimate realm of God — which is described as Nowhere. The work involved does not earn blessings — it is as bible states - “those that diligently seek Me shall find me says the Lord.”

Why it is described as being No-where is to protect the person from error, self abuse, deviltry, high minded snobbishness, and total withdrawal from society. The seeker is to remain in the world but not be a part of it. They are to be shining and reflecting Christ like character to all with all wisdom and tact. Light of the world they are to be and to be the salt of the earth is their creed.

According to their writings, the union of Spirit has to be experienced in order to understand what it is and it comes only from God as God calls and wills to whom he calls that hear and understand when it is the time to enter the interior castle. This has been called by some — Christ in you — the hope (expectancy) of glory.

This language is quite foreign for many today. The famous Christian minister and writer, A. W. Tozer, tried to show people what this subject was all about within his writings but still so many simply do not understand it and fear it due to potential for abuse. Billy Graham's wife, over the years in Decision magazine, mentions several old Christian Mystical writers that helped her discover God — Christ in you the hope of Glory.

Basically, true Christian Mysticism is the process of denying self and taking up your cross and following Jesus and not based on Platonic meshing into the prime mover's mover as many try to correlate it too.

God's Spirit reside in you when one became born again, from this, the kingdom of God is with you where Christ Jesus awaits within you, Jesus - the hope of glory indescribable. God is everywhere and no-where so you can find him. Chip away at the cloud of obscuring between you and God everyday. Walk the Christian walk not just talk the talk. That's their message in a nutshell.

Union with God is union with His love, righteousness, mercy, justice, His fairness, and God's veiled presence, that will break the hip (the seat of our power to walk on our own) and thus walk leaning against the rod and God's staff that comforts us all the days of our lives.

Such language is lost in today's post modern world. What a shame.
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[Kurieuo]

If you get the chance I'd recommend getting a hold of the book Body & Soul as I think it lays a good foundation for understanding them.

When you read OT Scripture "soul" nearly always appears to be represented as a physical body+spirit (where spirit often Scripturally represents one's vitality and essense). In Ecclesiastes 12:7 we read when we die, "the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it." So without a body, I believe our "spirit" returns to God who can sustain us.

Now "soul" has a developed meaning. You have Descartes' Cartesian dualism which reduces the soul to the mind or our consciousness, then you have Thomists who insist upon a more intimate relationship where the soul provides the form or essence of the body, that is, "the body is an ensouled biological and physical structure that depends on the soul for its existence" (taken from the book I mentioned above). This simply means that our soul possesses certain functional capacities (e.g., taste, touch, morality, sight, etc), and that our body is built upon these capacities allowing them to be expressed. One capacity I believe our soul has is a spiritual capacity (e.g., our "eyes" to God or the spiritual world), yet this requires the spiritual bodily component in order to be expressed and function. I often refer to this "spiritual bodily form" as our spirit. Our spirit is what I believe died in us when we sinned against God, severing our relationship with Him. Now we have to be spiritually "born again" (John 3:3-8) in order to receive our spiritual body back which allows us to perceive and even experience God again.

Anyway, you will need to read... but the above is what I've come to upon much philosophy and it appears to fit very well with Scripture.

Kurieuo

[Locker]

Is the Spirit - wind, breath, life from God? that gives life to...

The soul - our abilty to think and reason, personality, who we are that in turn would give life to...

the body - our earth suit - which mine is in need of overhaul - little flabby here and there...

Would there or could there be a symbloic usage between Spirit of the soul, spirit of the body (flesh) and even spirit of the spirit? and could this cross over usage of these terms be what is brings confusion over discovering what Spirit, soul, and body is or is not?

[Bernie]

BW, I think the "God is within" is more pointedly a Gnostic and new age teaching, isn't it? I think it's true that most Gnostics and new agers consider themselves to be mystics, and there's a lot of overlap today, but the mystics of old, despite the fact that they came up with some pretty odd stuff, tended much more strongly to base their views on the Bible. This isn't necessarily true of the modern Gnostic, and of many liberal mystics, who tend to insist that personal experience is a higher authority than the Bible.

Locker's view closely resembles mine....spirit as animating principle, soul as mind or intellect, the cognitive organ which is the product of spirit animating matter. The body sort of goes without question. At the same time, I have no problem with the dichotomost view. All these views are just models we use to describe our perception of a dualistc reality.

Though I use a tripartite view myself, I reject DesCartes' notion of the incorporeal and corporeal as separately functioning substances. Dualism is simply describing certain aspects of the same reality. I think this is important to note, because materialists are crowing loudly today about the "death of the soul" due to scientific advances, especially in neuroscience. I reject their claims....the mind/body, despite their celebration, still exists. Science is simply uncovering and improving our understanding of the intricate way spirit and matter work together as a single entity.

[Kurieuo]

I'm sure some would be interested to read a paper I wrote some time ago which defends substance dualism. Just thought I'd mention it (see Case for Dualism)

Kurieuo

[Bernie]

Hello Kurieuo,

I enjoyed your article. There are too many politically correct Christians out there today who seem to fear losing face if they defend the principles of God's dualistic design. Keep up the good work.

I especially appreciated your comment, "...it has been observed that when a part of one's brain is touched with an electrode, it may cause a mental experience such as a memory to occur.7 Some might classify this as evidence that mental states are reducible to physical states, yet this only demonstrates that the mind is causally connected to the brain and not that they are identical." I've felt for some time that the advances in neuroscience that are uncovering brain-mind connections were exciting because they were sharply defining the way spirit interacts with matter to produce intellect.

You might be interested in a discussion I've been engaged in on another board re dualistic structure and its relationship to esoteric meaning....
http://www.christianforums.com/t2729516 ... sense.html

Again, keep up the good work.