Women

[led]

So what's with 1Peter 3:7

We live in an age where women would rather have a career than submit to a man.

Many times it says for women to submit, even when the husband isn't serving the Lord, but they find it so hard to believe the Word for what it says.

Are women the weaker sex? if not, explain the verse. And don't throw in the culture thing... the Word of God does not change.

[IRQ Conflict]

"Weaker" meaning physically. They aren't the only ones.

This day and age it seems that men have bowed to the desires of the women to 'keep the peace' (I assume). Women are commanded to keep quite in the church also.

I see it as a lot of men take or took advantage of those passages as an excuse to abuse. But like everything in the Word people hand pick copy/paste what ever suits them. So be it, they will have to answer to God for it.

Act 1:13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.
Act 1:14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren

Now heres the ones the women don't like: (it's more about Godly order and obedience than anything else).

1Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
1Co 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

These day's unfortunately both men and women take the "it's all about me" approach.

[led]

"Weaker" meaning physically. They aren't the only ones.

So you mean that the husband needs understanding for things like moving the frig or cutting down a tree?

I don't think that he was concerned about the woman's physical strength when he wrote this. It doesn't say that plainly or in context.

I think that the context may be in regards to the man being the spiritual head of the household. which means that "weaker" refers to the spirit.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

[IRQ Conflict]

I think it could mean both, but I think paul said weaker like we use the term fairer sex today.

Paul say's women were made for men, not the other way around. He also states that it was the women who was decived by the serpent not the man, so that is probably relevent.

1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

So, it would seem, lies were first found in the lips of the women. But through Adam man was cursed through blood.

[bluesman]

I found a website that explains Man's and Woman's relationship a little clear than just the verses of Peter.

http://www.soundofgrace.com/piper89/6-11-89.htm

These are a few snippets:

quote from Genesis 2:24, "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one." In the next verse (v. 32) Paul looks back on this quote and says, "This mystery is a profound one, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church."

It stands for the relationship between Christ and the church. That's the deepest meaning of marriage. It's meant to be a living drama of how Christ and the church relate to each other.

Even so husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no man ever hates his own flesh but nourishes and cherishes it. . ."

The husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior." Then verse 25: "Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her."

Headship is the divine calling of a husband to take primary responsibility for Christ-like, servant leadership, protection and provision in the home.

Submission is the divine calling of a wife to honor and affirm her husband's leadership and help carry it through according to her gifts.

Only Christ's word is absolute. No wife should follow a husband into sin. You can't do that in reverence to Christ. Submission does not mean surrendering thought. It does not mean no input on decisions or no influence on her husband. It does not come from ignorance or incompetence. It comes from what is fitting and appropriate (Col. 3:18) in God's created order.

end of quotes.

I know my wife has said "cherish me like Jesus cherishes then I will be more submissive"

In today's world we need that Christ-like leadship from both Men and Women and the submission of both to God's ways.

To see and treat women like Islam does for example is just plain wrong

Mike

[ray]

The verse does not say she is a weaker vessel, but to give her honour as youi would to a weaker vessel. The verse also says a man and wife are heir together, not one more important or better than the other. Ephesians 5:2, So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. To me this again gives the idea that the wife is in NO WAY inferior to the husband. I think the admonishment here is to treat them in a special way, give them the extra honour that they deserve.

Ray

[kateliz]

But more than that, there's a hierarchy to be followed. The men are to be the head and lead, and the women are to follow, submit, and obey. Women are to be to men like studs are to drywall- behind the scenes for the most part supporting and upholding.

And I, for one, would never place a career before the obedience of marriage or the care of family. In fact, God has oddly been moulding me in the past year or so to one day be a submissive, supporting wife, and has really been working on me to desire raising up little ones for God.

[ruth]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello,
IRQ said 3/21:
"I think it could mean both, but I think paul said weaker like we use the term fairer sex today.

Paul say's women were made for men, not the other way around. He also states that it was the women who was deceived by the serpent not the man, so that is probably relevant.

So, it would seem, lies were first found in the lips of the women. But through Adam man was cursed through blood. "
********************

The Bible does not say that God told Eve not to eat of the tree. It says that God told Adam. God did not tell Adam that he was not even to touch the tree.
Eve told both of these things to Satan. It seems that Adam told her these things. One of which was an addition to the Word of God which God forbids in the MC.
The Scripture does not say where Adam was when Satan deceived Eve. From the content, it seems like Adam was right there with Eve at the time.
Satan probably touched the tree which led Eve to feel God had deceived them when Satan did not immediately die.
Her sin was to believe that God did not love her enough to only tell her things that were good for her, which led her to obey Satan not God.
Adam, however, was not deceived by Satan even if he touched the tree.
Adam was however led to eat when Eve did not die from eating. He could have surmised that the prohibition was only for him, so that he decided intentionally to disobey God. But he, like Eve, had to believe that God did not really love him enough to only give him good rules.
The sin of disobedience is always a lack of trust in the love or wisdom of the one giving the rule for you to obey.
So I would say that Adam's first wrong doing was to add to God's word and to lie to Eve. I believe, his, was the first lie. But he did not sin directly against God until he ate of the tree, as there was only yet one Law.
You might say that Eve did not sin against God because God never gave her the Law directly. That is partially true, but she believed God had given the rule and she knew the consequence for disobedience. But she ate anyway because she also distrusted in God's love.

I don't understand what you mean by "through Adam man was cursed through blood". Could you explain further?

Obedience to Our loving Heavenly Father is absolutely essential for the residents of a perfect Paradise. Otherwise, we end up with the kind of world we now live in. But choice is also essential otherwise there is no true relationship of love between Him and us.
The answer is the acquisition of the knowledge of the supreme wisdom and unblemished love for us that is forever a part of our Heavenly Father. That is the perfect plan for the world God originally made but in the future will be inhabited by people who have learned and are assured of who their Lord is and have chosen Him to be their Lord forever.
He chose mankind but now mankind must also be given that choice. We've seen what a world without His rule is like and we've seen what lengths He will go to to bring us back (He came and died for us), so now we must choose.
Ruth

[ruth]

IRQ Conflict wrote:
1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
********************

Verses 14 and 15 have always been a problem for me. Yeshua said, "John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved.
John 3:18 He that believeth on Him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the Name of the only begotten Son of God.

This passage tells me the way to salvation; through belief in Yeshua, the Messiah.
But the passage in 1Tim. seems to say there is a different way for women to be saved: through childbearing and charity and sobriety.

Does anyone here have an understanding of this passage?
Ruth

[bluesman]

1Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
1Co 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

First I think we must remember these are the words of Paul and not Jesus.
For the most part Paul's listeners burned with opposition to the truth.
So you can see the above as a way of Paul trying to maintain some order in what was a more hostile environment.

Mike

[bluesman]

From
http://www.saddlebackfamily.com/maturit ... sp?id=2966

Question: I was reading in 1 Corinthians 14:34 that women are not allowed to speak in the church. Whoa — what's up with this!?

Answer: Historical perspective REALLY helps with this one. In that day, men and women sat on different sides of the church. For a woman to ask her husband a question she would have to shout it to the other side of the church or disrupt the church service by getting up and walking over to him. Apparently, this is exactly what was happening in the Corinthian church, and their worship services were becoming a zoo. Paul is saying, "Listen during the worship service, and talk about your questions on the way home."


I really don't know the history of the time and place ,but this partly explains the verses to my opinion.

MIke

[bluesman]

Sorry to post 3 in a row, but I was needing to come to some solution on this because its very troublesome.

From
http://www.gracecentered.com/women_in_ministry.htm

Those statements (Scriptures) in 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 never ORIGINATED with Paul. Paul only REITERATED them as a rebuke to the Corinthian church in the letter we now read as Scripture. The Corinthians originally wrote them TO Paul. Paul told them how absurd it was for them to say that the Law commands women to be silent in the church - THEY ARE THE CHURCH. Paul said that they WERE NOT commands from the Lord but "ignorance" of what they were teaching God's people

in chapters 7 through 14, Paul was RESPONDING to questions and statements that the Corinthians WROTE TO HIM.

Paul actually used their words in his letter when he addressed some of their concerns and said they were foolish and they weren't of God. We have come to the place of turning the classic bondage Scriptures, 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 into a liberating Scripture for you.


Then in verses 34-35 he repeated what they first wrote to him: "Let your women keep silent in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also says the Law. And if they will learn any thing let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

Immediately after Paul wrote this, the next word he wrote was, "WHAT?" (v36). In the Greek, the word "what" is a negative disclaimer. We would say, "What, are you nuts?" Paul said, "What? Came the word of God out from you? Or did it come unto you only?" (v36). Meaning, that the previous statement that he wrote from the letter he received from them referring that women are to keep silent in the church was not from God at all. In fact, it was pure silliness.


End of Quotes

Now if what the website is true and I believe it is , then it turns the meaning of all this on its head. I believe its in keeping where the Holy Spirit is leading the Church. I believe it is keeping with the teaching of Jesus.

Mike



Mike

[led]

In that day, men and women sat on different sides of the church. For a woman to ask her husband a question she would have to shout it to the other side of the church or disrupt the church service by getting up and walking over to him. Apparently, this is exactly what was happening in the Corinthian church, and their worship services were becoming a zoo. Paul is saying, "Listen during the worship service, and talk about your questions on the way home."

Ok, can we stop with limiting scripture to a certian time? The Word of God does not change!

I've heard this one over and over and it is really wrong, so sorry if I sound a little hot.

[IRQ Conflict]

It does seem a tad confusing doesn't it Ruth?

I haven't studied this in detail but I'm sure my mom has, I'll ask her to give her opinion on this for you as soon as I can

[bluesman]

LED Wrote:bluesman wrote:
In that day, men and women sat on different sides of the church. For a woman to ask her husband a question she would have to shout it to the other side of the church or disrupt the church service by getting up and walking over to him. Apparently, this is exactly what was happening in the Corinthian church, and their worship services were becoming a zoo. Paul is saying, "Listen during the worship service, and talk about your questions on the way home."

End Quote

Actually I didn't write the above it was from a website!

LED Wrote:Ok, can we stop with limiting scripture to a certian time? The Word of God does not change!

I've heard this one over and over and it is really wrong, so sorry if I sound a little hot.

End Quote

The Word of God doesn't is very true! However, our understanding changes as we grow in the spirit and knowledge.

Scripture was all written at a certain time and meant to be understood at that time of writing. Understanding of conditions at that time can help us to understand what the writer meant.

My bible has a section before each book , that gives info on the writing.
For example the Date of Writing, and Occasion of Writing!!
The Bible scholars regonized the importance of these to help our understanding of the book. So who are you to say different?

Corinthians I was a letter written to the church at Corinth, to answer disturbing news about the church and to answer a request for information from the church!!

How plain can that be that this particular book was written for a certain time and to a certain church even. Therefore, we should understand something of that time,place and people to help understand what Paul is saying.

Having said that , once we understand , the instructions within pertain equally to our times.

Sorry if I sounded a little hot , but I heard it all before too. Throwing out an explanation with an over simplistic statement is just plain wrong.

However, I think you should read my post after the one you mentioned for a better explanation in my opinion.

God Bless you !!

Mike