Women

[bluesman]

Ruth

1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.


From http://www.gracecentered.com/women_in_ministry.htm

n 1 Timothy 2:12, Paul says, "I do not allow a woman (wife) to teach...Nor to usurp authority over the man (husband)." There are two very important things to take notice of in that Scripture.

First, it is Paul's desire and NOT a command of the Lord. Paul always says when it is of him and not the Lord. This is how the Lord was able to trust him in writing the Scriptures---He differentiated between his will and the Lord's will.

Secondly, to usurp authority one must go against the will of another. When the husband recognizes the anointing on his wife to teach, all he has to do is allow her to do so. Then, there is no authority usurped, it is granted.

Any Christian woman, married or unmarried can teach or take part in ministry.

-Stephen Gola

Thats one part of the scripture you have a trouble with.

[bluesman]

1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

from
http://lastdaysministry.com/ADAM.htm

Adam knew perfectly what God had told him. When Adam sinned he was not deceived, but rather sinned willfully and knowingly in direct disobedience to God.

But Eve was deceived by the craftiness of the serpent.

Adam told his wife not to eat of the forbidden fruit, and apparently deemed it necessary to tell her not to even touch it. This additional requirement that Adam made for his wife was not wrong or sinful, for he had not yet sinned. Adam was rightfully exercising his God-given authority.

End quote

So both Adam and Eve sinned. Adam willfully and Eve because she was deceived by Satan.

Mike

[IRQ Conflict]

Good observations, thanks bluesman.

[bluesman]

1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

This doesn't mean that a woman can have a baby and therefore be saved.

Men and WOMEN are saved because Jesus died on the cross and because we believe in him and follow the commandments.

One could say that Eve, gave birth to children that eventually resulted in Mary, who gave birth to Jesus.

It could also be said that God think highly of the importance of child rearing and raise children in Gods faith.

But.............

http://www.acesonline.org/Columnists/Ja ... on_142.htm

ANSWER
1 Timothy 2:15 is certainly a strange passage for the modern reader! Certainly Paul is not saying that one can live a godless life, as long as she has children, and will automatically go to heaven! But what is he saying?

To understand, it is essential to know something about the false teachings Paul in 1 Timothy is instructing the evangelist Timothy to combat. The name of this heresy is Gnosticism, from the Greek word gnosis, meaning "knowledge." Gnostics taught that the body was evil and sex was a necessary evil. Many advocated celibacy, forbade marriage, and prohibited the consumption of various foods (1 Timothy 4:1-5). Paul told Timothy to oppose these false teachings (1 Timothy 1:3). Whereas the Gnostics thought childbirth was somehow unrighteous, as it necessitated intercourse, Paul insists that women who have children will indeed be saved-provided, of course, they live the right sort of life.
With knowledge of its historical and theological context, this otherwise obscure passage makes sense. While all the basic teachings of the Bible are fairly easy to grasp without a lot of background knowledge, this does not mean that every verse in the scriptures is easy to understand (2 Peter 3:14-16). This particular passage requires a good deal of background knowledge.

In my own life and since we have young twin boys, my wife stays at home to raise the kids. We are even thinking about home schooling. Why?
We want to raise them in a Bible believing , God respecting, wholesome environment. However, that another topic that maybe has nothing to do with this verse.

Mike

[Shortcake]

The Bible does not say that God told Eve not to eat of the tree. It says that God told Adam. God did not tell Adam that he was not even to touch the tree.
Eve told both of these things to Satan.

The Scripture does not say where Adam was when Satan deceived Eve. From the content, it seems like Adam was right there with Eve at the time.

Yes Ruth, I believe your perception and 2 statement are totally right.
I would also like to add a few thoughts if I may. I believe, (just my own opinion) had Adam refused to eat what was offered to him by Eve, the fall wouldn't have happened. (Don't jump on me yet!)The command was given to Adam, not Eve; she was created later as his 'help meet'. The reason I tend to lean towards this thinking is because the command and responsibility was given to Adam and we see that when Eve ate the fruit, nothing happened, but, when Adam ate, this is the point at which both of their eyes were opened to the fact that they were naked. Eve disobeyed Adam not God (which she was held 'responsible' for doing because Adam was leading her to God by telling her what God had said). Adam was responsible for her and accountable to the Word God had given him. Had he shown 'love' to her he would have stopped the action before it got started. Instead he stood back to see what would happen 'to her'. Hmmm, nothing! “Guess God didn't mean what he said she didn't die!” Opps!
When God confronted her she spoke the truth, she said basically that she had indeed fell for the deception of the serpent and she did eat. What did Adam say when he was confronted by God? “That 'woman[/b'' 'You' gave me, she did give me and I did eat” So, I'm not really as responsible for this as You & the woman are. Adam is not only blaming the woman for his transgression but God also since it was His fault for giving her to him. Here he's practicing I believe his first lesson taught to him by his 'new' father the devil, deception, diverting the attention to someone else in order to escape responsibility for his own undeceived actions. God didn't buy it by the way.

1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
This passage tells me the way to salvation; through belief in Yeshua, the Messiah.
But the passage in 1Tim. seems to say there is a different way for women to be saved: through childbearing and charity and sobriety.

As I read it Ruth, this is not referring to her eternal state but rather to her physical. She is being told her part in the transgression, and God told her as a result of her part in it,
Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
In 1Tim he seems to be saying in spite of, (notwithstanding her curse in childbearing) she shall be “saved” (according to Thayer & Strong's concordance means to be kept safe & sound, protected) (this would be by God) during the child bearing, if she continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. I'm supposing this has a lot to do with the many deaths of women during childbirth, through numerous problems & complications that arose. The 'if' is not surprising since a great many of God's promises & blessings are based on “if” we do our part. Salvation is as you've described it, it's based solely on what Jesus has done & our acceptance of it. This goes for all man kind, men & women, it is unalterable. So, based on that knowledge, we can safely rule out this scripture referring in any way as to how to attain our eternal salvation.
I hope this is of some help to you.

[Shortcake]

We live in an age where women would rather have a career than submit to a man.
Many times it says for women to submit, even when the husband isn't serving the Lord, but they find it so hard to believe the Word for what it says.

I'd like to address your statement “We live in an age where women would rather have a career than submit to a man. Many times it says for women to submit, even when the husband isn't serving the Lord, but they find it so hard to believe the Word for what it says.”
First off, this is written to Christian believers, there is no context here for believing that a woman is to submit and follow a man (husband) into sin. We cannot simply take something out of its context and base a doctrine on it; we have to take all regarding any given subject, keeping them in context and then see what we are to believe. (Rightly dividing the word of God)
It's not “hard to believe the Word for what it says”, as long as you don't omit the parts that you don't want included. That's all part of what the Word says too and must be believed as a whole.
One example of what I thought you may be referring to, because you didn't give any references other than 1 Peter, is:
Eph 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the savior of the body.
Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;[/b]
Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Eph 5:28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
Eph 5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
Eph 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Eph 5:33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.
1Pe 3:7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honor unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

I have also include your “So what's with 1Peter 3:7” in this, as it's all part and parcel of the same subject.
I see this as how the marriage and the family is to be set up, the husband (who is suppose to be the head of the home) is under God's 'umbrella', the wife is under the 'umbrella' of her husband & the children are under the 'umbrella' of both of their parents. The husband has been given the 'responsibility' for his wife under God, and is not to follow Adams example. It's sad to say though in nearly all marriages, the husband usually follows in Adams footsteps. It's the wife's fault, she won't submit to ME! Never stepping back & looking at 'why' the wife isn't doing what she needs to be doing. Remember, according to many scriptures, God holds the man responsible for his wife & children to walk rightly. The husband is mandated by God to lead 'not drag' his wife to Christ in all ways, treating her with 'love' (commanded) Eph: 22-33, & 'honor' 1Pe 3:7 (precious, value, esteem, especially of the highest degree).
But how does one lead? By example, not by demand! How does Christ lead? By example!!!
Guys, He did it first! What examples are you setting forth for your wife to follow? Is she acting in like manner as you? If you're mean mouthed, is she? If you want your own way, does she? Remember now, you're the leader, where are you leading her?
Notice in verse 22 it says “Wives, submit yourselves” it doesn't say “husbands, force your wife into submission”! The next '2' verses go on to tell the wives why this is necessary.
God has a plan!!!! Amen? Notice that none of the explanation is: “So your husband can be big boss man”, “so he can be a CONTROLLER”, “so he can throw his weight around and have his own (not Christ's) way about everything” I can tell you, if this is your motive, God will NEVER give you a submissive wife! Remember its God's plan, not yours.
Now, the rest of God's plan comes into play as we read the next '9' verses and 1 Pe 3:7 speaking to the husbands.

'Weaker vessel', this to me is one of the most beautiful statements in scripture regarding the treatment of a wife by her husband. When we look at some of the other scriptures referencing this subject, we see that she is to be him like a beautiful, highly treasured valuable being (just an example, like a priceless vase would be to an art collector), to be handled according to the 'nature of her standing', not browbeaten because of her less dominate role, it has nothing to do with her physical or mental or spiritual strength, a husband is to gently care for her, mentally, morally, spiritually & physically. Being of the female ½ of the equation, I can tell you (if you're a man) that to treat a woman in this Godly manner 'at all times' not just 'when you're in the mood', that a women would hang on your every word, & would follow you to the ends of the earth!!!! She would not and is not to be a treated as a mindless idiot; she is not to be overpowered! God has endowed her with many gifts, be smart, make full use of what He has given, use the wisdom, instinct, foresight, or whatever else that she possess. It will serve you well. What you will find happening, 'if' you submit to Christ's way, is her willingness to write on the same line that you are. She will begin to 'want' to support, protect, insure your comfort and fulfill your every desire, talk about submission!!! Just like (if you're a Christian) you desperately want to please Jesus in all you do! Why? Because that's how He treats YOU! Contrast this with what you will normally see in a marriage, a man who insists on submission instead of allowing submission (usually means he requires a servant, not a wife & 'help meet') all the while behind the scenes, out of sight of others, although not always, he's cursing her out, debasing her, yelling, threatening, telling her she's no good for anything, often calling her names, both in front of her as well as behind her back to his friends, whining and complaining about how bad he's got it, sometimes physically abusive as well. After all, he's 'king' right? Tell me, which of these 2 do you think a woman will fall all over herself to follow after? Which of these 2 do you think examples Christ's way? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying all men do all these things but I have lived way to long to not see that the majority of men carry out many if not most of these actions in their marriage.
Both men & women need to look up & live Phil 2:4-9
Phi 2:4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
Phi 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Phi 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Phi 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Phi 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Phi 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Can you imagine the name your wife or husband would give you before others if this is how they were treated by you at home? What must be realized is that a husband 'represents' the living Christ to his wife (& children), you are in his place as a real & physical image and demonstration of how Christ loves her and the wife 'represents' the living body of Christ whom He cherishes & is in the place of the bride, as a real & physical image and demonstration of His beloved, resulting in her desire to please & obey Her Lord. Do Christian men portray this? Are they the humbleness of Jesus? Maybe some, but not most. The thing about women is that they find it near impossible to submit to someone that doesn't practice what he preaches. So, unless the husband is willing to walk it according to the same Word they expect their wives to, they best not talk it. Think of it this way, if I was to ask your wife if this is the way you treat her, what would her answer be?

[Shortcake]

I think that the context may be in regards to the man being the spiritual head of the household. which means that "weaker" refers to the spirit

No led, I don't think this is at all referring to a weaker spirit. If we go through scriptures dealing with the aspects of the spirit, there aren't stronger or weaker ones. All human spirits are given by God and are apart of God (blown into the nostril of Adam to give life to the body.) It's the part of us by which we can know and be reunited to our God; He would not have given anyone a weaker spirit with which to do this. Being the head has nothing to do with who is spiritually more mature. As I've stated above it's simply “to live with your wife understanding the less dominancy of the 'nature' of her calling as apposed to that of the more dominate roll of the husbands calling, not her physical or mental or spiritual strength.

[led]

Welcome Shortcake,
It seems you may have misunderstood where I was coming from.

This topic isn't about men and women in marriage. This topic is about the Christian woman and why they find it so hard to submit to their Christian husbands. The focus is on the woman. We can start another thread about men if you'd like. I should point out that I'm very willing to lay down my life for my wife as Christ did for the church. And also, what does "weaker" mean in 1Peter 3:7. Please use scripture to back up any points.

So, you're saying that a woman's calling is weaker? I must disagree with that. There are many examples of great women of God in the Bible. Could you please show me in scripture where it says that there are stronger and weaker callings. Thx

[Shortcake]

led
Thank you so much for the welcome! I was delighted to read your post, what a boost you gave me.
Reading your Godly attitude toward your wife was wonderful. I hope you read in my last posts that I was not describing all marriages.
You are completely right, their many examples of some really great & anointed women in scriptures plus several I know personally, so I have no dissent with your statement whatsoever and in no way do I mean that a women's calling is weaker, and no, I can not give you any scriptures that say there are stronger and weaker callings because there are none!!! I'm sorry that my statement and intent has been misunderstood or perhaps misleading in regards to 1Pe 3:7.
I was however mistaken as to the thread only being about women, I was responding to your entire statement
“So what's with 1Peter 3:7 .
We live in an age where women would rather have a career than submit to a man.
Many times it says for women to submit, even when the husband isn't serving the Lord, but they find it so hard to believe the Word for what it says.
Are women the weaker sex? if not, explain the verse. And don't throw in the culture thing... the Word of God does not change.”
This was what led me to think it was about submission in marriage, so my apologies. No offence was ever intended led.

I'm not really clear what you are meaning though, you said “This topic isn't about men and women in marriage. This topic is about the Christian woman and why they find it so hard to submit to their Christian husbands.”
Maybe I'm just reading it wrong.

You had stated “they find it hard to believe the Word for what it says” thus my response was to say “we don't” (I'm not talking about all women of course, just as I was not talking about all men). I have dealt with so many people in this area and through speaking with them (men & women) I honestly only wanted to show (talking from their point of view) and the problems I have seen as to “why” some women are not obeying the Word as they should be. This was not an attack on men, both sides are in error. I sure hope this explains to you why I took the approach I did.
Just another thing I was thinking about after I had posted led, that we may well consider as to why some (many) have difficulty with this.
We have to consider the damage that has been done to our Lords creation through our common enemy satan & how he infiltrates, I'm specifically talking about women here and the “Women's Lippers movement” (yes I meant to spell it that way because that's what they are) One of the most destructive ungodly organizations around. Sadly, they have crept into and are seen as right even in the minds of many Christians. (Deception remember?) Well, it's 1 why anyhow 

So that said, I'll get back on the track you wanted this thread to go in the first place.

Since the word “weaker” only occurs 1 other time in KJV, and it is Old Testament, I cannot banter with how scriptures elsewhere in NT Greek deals with this particular descriptive word, or it's usage, so that's out! (It does however use this word to describe “weak” but not weak'er'.)
I'm not really sure how to go about this since you have singled out the woman from this verse in 1 Pe 3:7 yet to me it's kind of a package deal, if we eliminate the man and his roll in marriage , the description would make no sense (to me). Let me explain myself. I know you don't want the 'marriage' part but please bear with me because I believe it's that very thing that gives us the answer to your question, (Maybe?) It seems that the subject of the verse is about the 'attitude of the husband to the wife in the marriage, & not women in general.' So Peter is describing the wife in order to establish this attitude. Now, if she is a child of God, because of Gal 3:26-29, I think we can safely rule out the 'weaker' as being 'a calling into ministry, anointings, joint heirs, of less value than a man, or spiritually weaker' (I do believe that we are called and anointed for marriage for both husband and wife but this is not what I am referring to here)

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
According to these verses, whatever God does or gives, He does not base it on gender.

So this brings me back to 'within the marriage', I am not saying that the nature of her calling as a wife is weaker or less important than that of the husband, only that I believe Peter is saying her 'position' within the husband wife relationship is that she is not the 'leader vessel' but the 'subject vessel'
1Pe 3:7 Likewise, ye husbands (leaders & authority of the marriage), dwell with them according to knowledge (understanding), giving honor (type of treatment as a result of the understanding) unto the wife, as unto the weaker (under authority, the subjective) vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.
Ohhhhhh I know how to explain what I'm getting at!
Ok, let's say there's a King, who has a kingdom of people, now, even if that King was a child (which has happened in scripture), that King would be considerably 'stronger' (by the attributes of his position) and his subjects 'weaker' (by the attributes of their position) than he and a good King will treat those of his kingdom with respect, a bad king will mistreat those that must be in submission to him. It's a matter of the 'position' of authority that he has in his kingdom.
This is what I believe Paul is saying. I'm sorry that I failed to produce other scriptures about 'women being weaker' but I don't know of any. That's why I kind of worked backwards by elimination. Does this help any at all?

[led]

That did help, thx

I was however mistaken as to the thread only being about women, I was responding to your entire statement

It's so easy to get the wrong impression through text. And perhaps I could have been more clear.

To make this thread simple, I'm really just trying to figure out the "weaker" part.

I'm not sure if it's just talking about authority or "her 'position' within the husband wife relationship" alone, as you stated.

When I look at Adam and Eve it seems to say more than that. It seems as if Eve wasn't at the same level as Adam was.

Perhaps we can try a different angle. If the husband has more authority/higher position then is it far to say that the husband is more anointed to carry out his responsabilities?

[Shortcake]

I'm not sure if it's just talking about authority or "her 'position' within the husband wife relationship" alone, as you stated.

And this is a 'good' thing led. You are doing exactly what your Lord commands. 2Ti 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
I truly am not trying to sway you into thinking my take on this is the absolute 1 and only way to see this, I'm only sharing with you my perception of this scripture and why I believe that this is what it means. It's thrilling to me to see someone digging in and searching for truth & understanding. Pro 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding. I do want to make very clear that I am speaking specifically of the anointing of being a wife & not women in general as being children of God (callings & ministries etc) & the reason for this is because the passage is speaking to "husbands" not to men in general as children of God (callings & ministries etc). We can step into the arena of this passage relating in some minor way to her physical structure I guess, and it could be touching on that, but I sure don't in myself see that as being primary here. I realize that a womans body, although very similar to a mans is not exactly the same. Talking in generalities, her physical muscle structure and physical capabilities, even taken to extreme, such as body building, cannot come close to what a mans can, given the same extreme measures. Even world class female body builders cannot compare in muscle size or strength (no matter of their stature) of that of their counterparts. So, although this could be included in this verse I still believe that it would be a shame to leave it at that explanation & by far, omit what this verse is trying to teach us.

Perhaps we can try a different angle. If the husband has more authority/higher position then is it far to say that the husband is more anointed to carry out his responsabilities?

OPPPS! Can you tell there's another apology coming here? I have reread my last post because somehow I have once again mislead or was unable to 'correctly' explain. When I said "I am not saying that the nature of her calling as a wife is weaker or less important than that of the husband, only that I believe Peter is saying her 'position' within the husband wife relationship is that she is not the 'leader vessel' but the 'subject vessel' In now way meant that her anointing is in any degree less potent than that of her husbands anointing, only different. Men do not require "more anointing to carry out his responsabilities", they need "the" anointing. Weaker in that her anointing of authority within the marriage cannot over rule his anointing of leadership authority in the marriage in God, whereas his can over rule hers in Gods order of things The anointing given to the husband is an enabling, a divine empowering to lead to God in the marriage, the anointing given to the wife is an enabling, a divine empowering by God to follow him to God. Believe me when I say that for a women to follow (submit) takes a huge and powerful anointing! Women, just like men, have very strong wills, she must relinquish what she wants to do and do what she doesn't want. Now of course, this is to be tempered with her knowledge of God and what His Word commands, she cannot follow her husband into sin. Because of the vulnerable position this puts women in, God also gives discernment so that we are not led astray when a husband is not obeying the Word, just as he gives discernment to the husband to know when his wife is being led astray. As to the husbands anointing, it is different and must be. He has, because of the anointing, been given a tremendous responsibility (one which I must say, that I am very grateful not to have to bear) He has to be before the face of God constantly on behalf of his wife (& children if any) to know how, when and where to lead. I have a great deal of respect for the man who truly follow (submits) himself to God in his office as husband.
You know what? Lets take this thread as our example, you started this thread, so you are the authority here and as such, you are under the authority of this forum, you submit to their rules & regulations. You are responsible for making sure that we as posters (your subjects in your kingdom) in this thread, stay on track as far as keeping to the subject at hand right? Now, when I posted what I thought was the theme of this disscussion (lets for the sake of the illustration say I was 'deceived') I was in error. You as the authority in a respectful manner said to me "no, this is incorrect, this is where we are to go", right? So, I inturn 'submitted' to your authority here and followed the example (leading by authority) that you set. Now, in no way am I 'less' than you or weaker than you, & this has not taken away 'my' authority to post, give my opinions & interact within the framework of this thread, but rather, exercising my authority to do so in a submissive manner to you. I recognized you as the one in authority and yielded to it. You could have been very abusive to me, telling me I was an idiot for having posted as I did, but you didn't. (Good King led!) Is this making any sense or have I gone aside of what you where getting at?
Just one further comment in this, you had said in response to IRQ "So you mean that the husband needs understanding for things like moving the frig or cutting down a tree?" I really got a giggle out of your sense of humor! I'm sure you know that this isn't so, but here's my take on it. I'm going to take this verse and for a lack of a better way to do it, I will paraphrase it in order to maybe help us to determine what the "knowledge" aspect is regarding "the husband needs understanding"
1 Pe 3:7 Listen guys, live with your wife, comprehending that you are the head, the spiritual leader of your wife along with all the resposibility that goes with it, grasp the fact that her anointing as your wife is to follow you, to submit to your leadership, don't abuse this authority, but instead, treat her with respect and gentleness, be tolerent, non demanding & value her as your help meet, keep things in perspective & balanced, because she, like you, is a joint heir with Christ. Otherwise God will not hear your prayers.
Honestly led, the womens anointing as wife is really a double blessing if she would only see that. I as a wife not only hear from God for myself due to my personal relationship with Him, I also hear from God through my husband!!!! 'Double' When I hear from my Lord, I take it to my husband who then is responsible to take it before God for confirmation, so I 'know' I'm safe! When he hears from God, he will bring it to me and I as his support & help meet will take it before God to either get confirmation or God will in one way or another (because I have honored my husband in this) bring confirmation to him.
My husband & I have been married for over 39yrs, I think maybe something is working (of course, he may have a different opionon, remember the 'tolerence' thing I spoke of?)

When I look at Adam and Eve it seems to say more than that. It seems as if Eve wasn't at the same level as Adam was.

To be truthful with you, I have never even gone here. I've not seen this account in this light. You are really stretching me which is very good! We all need it, it keeps us alive and keeps us digging. Amen? If you would please let me know what in this account leads you to feel that Eve doesn't seem to be on the same level as Adam. This is absolutely great! I love when someone sees things that I don't or has a different sight on something, so if you would please show me what you see, we can go there!
~Sharon~

[led]

If you would please let me know what in this account leads you to feel that Eve doesn't seem to be on the same level as Adam. This is absolutely great! I love when someone sees things that I don't or has a different sight on something, so if you would please show me what you see, we can go there!
~Sharon~

I don't want to come across as a control freak and someone who does whatever I want no matter what my wife says. On the contrary, I don't want to go too far the other way! My wife wants to persue a pastoral role as she has gone to Bible college and is very good at teaching (I think she's a better teacher than I ). Right now we're leading an English service in Asia as role pastors until I'm ordained and she preaches almost as much as I do. So I want to figure this whole authority/ministry/chain of command/God spoke to Adam and not Eve(except to curse Eve) thing.

I don't want to seem harsh, but it seems the tone through the whole Bible(OT & NT) is that women are to help and almost serve the man. And for the man to take care of and provide for and love his wife. It seems as if God's desire is to use men as the tools for the frontlines ministry.

Any thoughts... with scripture ofcourse

[Shortcake]

led,
I will post as soon as I can, I am doing some scripture searching. I will not respond haphazardly or without prayer.
~Sharon~

[bluesman]

I found this great webpage the explains the weaker vessel phrase quite well.

http://members.datafast.net.au/~sggram/f211.htm

I would also that although my wife is my equal and able to care for herself, I try to treat her special. For example, when you date a woman you open the door for her even though she is capable of doing it. A man gives up his seat on the bus to lady.
As far a submission I submit to her on areas where she has more knowledge.
For example, as far as what goes on in the kitchen she is in charge.


Mike

[bizzt]

If you would please let me know what in this account leads you to feel that Eve doesn't seem to be on the same level as Adam. This is absolutely great! I love when someone sees things that I don't or has a different sight on something, so if you would please show me what you see, we can go there!
~Sharon~

I don't want to come across as a control freak and someone who does whatever I want no matter what my wife says. On the contrary, I don't want to go too far the other way! My wife wants to persue a pastoral role as she has gone to Bible college and is very good at teaching (I think she's a better teacher than I ). Right now we're leading an English service in Asia as role pastors until I'm ordained and she preaches almost as much as I do. So I want to figure this whole authority/ministry/chain of command/God spoke to Adam and not Eve(except to curse Eve) thing.

I don't want to seem harsh, but it seems the tone through the whole Bible(OT & NT) is that women are to help and almost serve the man. And for the man to take care of and provide for and love his wife. It seems as if God's desire is to use men as the tools for the frontlines ministry.

Any thoughts... with scripture ofcourse

It is interesting... You notice that the below verse talks about the Husband and Wife as a Team. They both Ministered to Apollos.
Act 18:26 and he began to speak boldly in the synagogue. But when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more accurately.