Were early Christians socialists?

[bluesman]

Matthew

25:31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 25:32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 25:33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.25:34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:25:35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 25:36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 25:37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 25:38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 25:39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 25:40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

A very strong reason to feed the poor. A romantic view of socialism (little s)
might at least partly fit.

25:41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 25:42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 25:43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 25:44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 25:45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 25:46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

I sure wouldn't want to be uncaring capitalist.

I would say that God wants this giving to be of ones freewill, so that he may judge peoples hearts.

Some say the Bible teaches Socialism. Some say it teaches Capitalism. This page shows how both are an extreme and not in agreement with the Bible.

http://www.christianparents.com/jason.htm

Government that teach atheisism, that are against God, wether Socialist or Capitalist is against the bible and therefore wrong.

If you think the government of the United States works you are sadly mistaken PL.

I think the Bible teaches that none of man's governments work and that
the only one government that will is the one to come, with Jesus as King.

Mike the Bluesman

[Canuckster1127]

Matthew

25:31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 25:32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 25:33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.25:34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:25:35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 25:36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 25:37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 25:38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 25:39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 25:40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

A very strong reason to feed the poor. A romantic view of socialism (little s)
might at least partly fit.

25:41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 25:42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 25:43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 25:44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 25:45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 25:46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

I sure wouldn't want to be uncaring capitalist.

I would say that God wants this giving to be of ones freewill, so that he may judge peoples hearts.

Some say the Bible teaches Socialism. Some say it teaches Capitalism. This page shows how both are an extreme and not in agreement with the Bible.

http://www.christianparents.com/jason.htm

Government that teach atheisism, that are against God, wether Socialist or Capitalist is against the bible and therefore wrong.

If you think the government of the United States works you are sadly mistaken PL.

I think the Bible teaches that none of man's governments work and that
the only one government that will is the one to come, with Jesus as King.

Mike the Bluesman

Yup. Capitalism and democracy are lousy systems. They are exceeded in evil only by every other system devised and tried by man.

Having lived in both the US and Canada, I'm not all that thrilled by Canada's track record in some important areas either.

Both Canada and the US however, are countries that are benefitting from a huge supply of natural resources, and relative lower density of population compared to the "Old World," thus putting those resources in higher proportion to potential ownership and benefit.

We tend to conveniently ignore how the deck is shuffled in that regard and imagine that there is some divine right of kings at work to explain our prosperity. We thus become the insects on the leaf calling down to our brothers in the dirt how they should work harder to rise to our level. I do think there are some strong merits to the systems we have in place and that other countries would do well to adopt or adapt if for no other reason to overthrow some systems in place that really do keep their populations in poverty and castes with no real care for human suffering.

Democracy provides freedom in many areas that is wonderful and within it Christianity has flourished and the US and Canada become sending nations of that message. It's no mistake however, that Europe is the only continent where Christianity is diminishing, North America is the slowest growing continent in terms of Christian Growth now, with Australia only slightly ahead. Africa, Asia and South America are exploding and that growth cannot be attributed to what we in the US and Canada like to imagine is anything special to do with us.

Often times democracy is nothing more that 3 wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.

[Blacknad]

IMO, the last two posts are much more balanced.

I don't think Christians should embrace either Socialism or Capitalism, but should be looking for an alternative that is consistent with Christ's teachings.

Capitalism is defined in Wikipedia as follows:

Characteristics of capitalist economies

A set of broad characteristics are generally agreed on by both advocates and critics of capitalism. These are a private sector, private property, free enterprise, profit, unequal distribution of wealth, competition, self-organization (or catallaxy), the existence of markets (including the labor market) and the pursuit of self-interest.

Maybe one of our Christian lovers of Capitalism can explain how a system based upon self-interest fits in with scripture.


We probably need a new Bible translation. I propose the NCV (New Capitalist Version).

Mat 25:34 Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
Mat 25:35 For I was hungry and you explained the blessings of Free Enterprise, I was thirsty and you convinced me of the wisdom of unequal distribution of resources, I was a stranger and you wisely kept me at arms length to protect your wealth,
Mat 25:36 I was naked and you taught me the virtue of self-interest, I was sick and you gladly told me the evils of a National Health Service, I was in prison and you sagely understood that there was no profit in visiting me.'

We obviously need a new up to date version of the scriptures that understands the wisdom of subscribing to a system of economics that encourages decisions to be made in the interest of profit.

In fact we really need to take Christ out of the gospels and let Mammon assume his rightful place. The Gospel According to Smith.

Blacknad.

[bluesman]

It's no mistake however, that Europe is the only continent where Christianity is diminishing, North America is the slowest growing continent in terms of Christian Growth now, with Australia only slightly ahead. Africa, Asia and South America are exploding and that growth cannot be attributed to what we in the US and Canada like to imagine is anything special to do with us.

I was wondering where you got your Christian Growth stats information from.
I don't disagree, just want to know where I can reliable information on that from.

What about the growth of Islam and other religions? I would say Islam seems to be growing much faster than any.



Mike
Bluesman

[Canuckster1127]

It's no mistake however, that Europe is the only continent where Christianity is diminishing, North America is the slowest growing continent in terms of Christian Growth now, with Australia only slightly ahead. Africa, Asia and South America are exploding and that growth cannot be attributed to what we in the US and Canada like to imagine is anything special to do with us.

I was wondering where you got your Christian Growth stats information from.
I don't disagree, just want to know where I can reliable information on that from.

What about the growth of Islam and other religions? I would say Islam seems to be growing much faster than any.



Mike
Bluesman

My stats quoted are general and are based upon my general familiarity with this subject. Europe's decline was quoted by several of our Church's Missionaries in our last Missions Conference. The rate they quoted was 0.6% annual diminishing of professing Christians. I don't know their specific source. It simply corresponds with what I've observed and heard in other forums over the years as well.

The rest of the world observations are based on general knowledge and observation as a former pastor and district official in a Missions based denomination. I know that hardly flies as certifiable. Maybe I'll check and get some directly referable sources on that. If anyone knows any better and can reference it better than me, I welcome being corrected or narrowed on my focus.

In terms of Islam, you are correct but there are some caveats I think to keep in mind. Islam exists in a great many countries as an effective theocrasy and therefore their growth stats incorporate the birth rate of the nation as all nationals are automatically counted. The degree of faith and commitment of individual Muslims would vary as much as you might expect among "Christian" nations in the past that were identified upon that basis as well. Nevertheless, the degree of conformity and pressure for conformity is such that many Muslims who would dare to publicly profess either doubts about Islam or go further and convert to Christianity or any other system are severe and can include shunning, family rejection and in some severe instances, Martyrdom. This despite the fact that there are passages within the Koran and some history that encourages at least some arms-length acceptance of Jews and Christians as fellow "people-of-the-book."

That's what I know (or think I know) in general on the subject. Maybe I'll do some nosing around and see what credible statistics exist on the web that I can post in this arena.

[Jac3510]

PL, do you get the impression that our socialist-friendly idealists are arguing primarily from an anti-American motivation?

Down with America! Raaarrrr!

Sorry, guys . . . I believe America is a better country, even with our problems, than anywhere else. Call me a nationalist. Call be elitest. Call me whatever, but as the old song says, "I'm proud to be an American, where at least I know I'm free!"

Anti-Americanism is much like anti-Catholicism . . . if the Catholics do it, it must be wrong. Silly stances amuse me

God bless

[Canuckster1127]

PL, do you get the impression that our socialist-friendly idealists are arguing primarily from an anti-American motivation?

Down with America! Raaarrrr!

Sorry, guys . . . I believe America is a better country, even with our problems, than anywhere else. Call me a nationalist. Call be elitest. Call me whatever, but as the old song says, "I'm proud to be an American, where at least I know I'm free!"

Anti-Americanism is much like anti-Catholicism . . . if the Catholics do it, it must be wrong. Silly stances amuse me

God bless

Sorry. You're not going to get away with labeling me in that manner.

I am American by Choice. I came here, naturalized and have been in many other places to compare. I am proudly and sincerely American.

Attempting to write anyone off in that manner is simply sloppy and lazy thinking and attacks the messenger rather than interacting with the message.

Believe it or not, Christianity existed before America came about and should Christ tarry, it will be around long after America is gone. The two are not synonymous. I certainly believe America has done a tremendous amount for the kingdom and I rejoice in that.

The fact remains however, that America's influence within Christendom is diminishing from its strong predominant role in the past, much as Europe's already has. There is far more happening in the so-called "third-world" and there are some strong reasons for that that the Church in America needs to consider before we completely follow the path modelled by the formerly Christian nations of the Old World. There truly is more risk to Christians in prosperity than there is in poverty and persecution, although I certainly prefer the former than the later.

God Bless America! Amen. ..... not just America however ......

Try again, and if you meant to include me in that salvo, please think again.

[Canuckster1127]

Here's an article that backs up what I was saying about the Growth rate of Christianity around the world and introduces some new elements as well.

http://www.christianpost.com/article/in ... ndus/1.htm

[Blacknad]

PL, do you get the impression that our socialist-friendly idealists are arguing primarily from an anti-American motivation?

Down with America! Raaarrrr!

Sorry, guys . . . I believe America is a better country, even with our problems, than anywhere else. Call me a nationalist. Call be elitest. Call me whatever, but as the old song says, "I'm proud to be an American, where at least I know I'm free!"

Anti-Americanism is much like anti-Catholicism . . . if the Catholics do it, it must be wrong. Silly stances amuse me

God bless

Ahh! So good to see reasoned debate.

Jac, why don't you engage with the discussion and answer my questions and we'll take it from there.

Do you think this kind of rhetoric is helpful? You need to move away from the methodology of the 'School Debating Team'.

Or are you really under the impression that trying to label someone as Anti-American is a good substitute for engaging with the issues?

Remember McCarthyism? Remember post 9/11 when anyone urging restraint was labelled as unpatriotic and worse.

Well now I see that anyone who has a problem with unrestrained Capitalism is labelled as Anti-American.


If you would care to answer my two questions I would be appreciative:

QUESTION ONE. Why is it permissable for a Christian to accumulate wealth (i.e. more than enough to support their needs on an ongoing basis) when there are people in this world - in your society - who have nothing or little through no fault of their own?

QUESTION TWO. Can you please explain how we are obeying the command to 'LOVE OUR NEIGHBOR AS OURSELVES' when we accumulate more of the worlds resources than we actually need to live, when we are surrounded by people who are suffering because they don't have enough?

Thanks,

Blacknad.

[Jac3510]

Canuck

I certainly understand that Christianity <> America. However, in reading through the thread, there seems to me to be an implication that the American mindset (that is, free market, individualistic capitalism) is inherently evil, and thus, American Christianity is "evil." Perhaps your argument would be more effective if you claimed Capitalism <> America? I can demonstrate this way:

Suppose I had said, "I sense an anti-capitalistic bias in this thread." Well that would have been no statement at all. That would have been like Puritan saying, "Jac . . . I sense a bit of anti-Calvinism from you." It is the very thing under debate. However, I personally equate capitalism with American mentality. Thus, my statement.

Now, I could of course be wrong, but if the American mindset is naturally capitalistic, then it follows that you are anti-American. Does that prove you wrong? Of course not. It would be fallicious to use that fact to prove the argument. However, could it explain your motiviations and thus your basis of interpretation? Now THAT is a possibility.

Of course, it is not a requirement, either. Assuming all of the above (which was built into my question to Puritan), either you have a pre-existing bias and have thus interpreted Scripture accordingly, or you have interpreted Scripture apart from your commitment to socialism (or anti-capitalism?) and have thus taken an anti-American stance.

So, take it as you will. I was asking PL a question, and I posted it publically as I appreciate the implications of the question.

Blacknad:

First, see above. Second, I'm not going to engage in the debate. I've already stated my position. But, to answer your initial questions, I do think this sort of rhetoric is helpful. So far as McCarthyism and 9/11 goes, these serve as good example of anti-American, unpartriotic traitors, in my mind. I'm a staunch conservative. I am anti-Socialistic. To a great extent, I am anti-European. I am pro-America. I am pro-Bush, pro-War (in Iraq), etc. I consider people who reject the tenets on which this country was founded to be anti-American.

Strong rhetoric? Yeah, I suppose it is. PL may not agree. I don't know. But if your political biases affect your biblical interpretation, I believe you have some serious problems, and you will present serious problems to the body of Christ. To that extent, I don't care if you are Anti-American based on your interpretation of Scripture. That's your deal. Personally, I find it irritating that people are mooching off my tax dollars and then slamming the country that provided them food, shelter, opportunity for betterment, education, etc. But, that's personal and no further. It doesn't enter debate all that much. If, on the other hand, you interpret Scripture based on your bias, we have a problem.

You'll say you don't, which is fine. It's something we all need to examine. But, again, no, I'm not going to engage in this debate. I felt it was appropriate to point out an underlying assumption. But I'm not about to enter this discussion on these grounds. Besides, to be bluntly honest, socialism is my weak spot.

Here's a genuine confession for you: I hate socialism to a fault. There are certain ideas in this world that are repulsive to me. Read my rant on Calvinism. It's a pretty bad idea so far as I am concerned! And, sometimes, I let my personally feelings get involved. But, for the most part, I am perfectly capable of discussing that subject in a calm, rational manner. I can still respect PL to no end, even though he is at the complete opposite end of the scale of me on this.

I am not capable of that with the socialism debate. It goes way, way beyond a theological construct. To me, to advocate and defend socialism is on the same level as to advocate and defend child pornography. You are defending the right to sin, and I hate it. I'm having a seriously hard time keeping a lid on this even now. So, I refuse to get involved in the Scriptural aspect. I know my limits. Give Satan no occassion, right? I have my interpretations of Scripture, and I have my answers to your questions. I'm not going to change your mind, and my statements on socialism wouldn't be constructive enough to help someone trying to make up their mind on the subject. Therefore, there is absolutely no need for me to contribute to this aspect of the argument.

Oh, and PL . . . I wasn't being rhetorical, for what it is worth. I'm really curious as to your opinion on it. You can PM me if you don't want to take a public stance on this particular question, assuming you want to answer it at all. But, it was a genuine question, albeit with a few editorial remarks attached

God bless

[Canuckster1127]

Canuck

I certainly understand that Christianity <> America. However, in reading through the thread, there seems to me to be an implication that the American mindset (that is, free market, individualistic capitalism) is inherently evil, and thus, American Christianity is "evil." Perhaps your argument would be more effective if you claimed Capitalism <> America? I can demonstrate this way:

Suppose I had said, "I sense an anti-capitalistic bias in this thread." Well that would have been no statement at all. That would have been like Puritan saying, "Jac . . . I sense a bit of anti-Calvinism from you." It is the very thing under debate. However, I personally equate capitalism with American mentality. Thus, my statement.

Now, I could of course be wrong, but if the American mindset is naturally capitalistic, then it follows that you are anti-American. Does that prove you wrong? Of course not. It would be fallicious to use that fact to prove the argument. However, could it explain your motiviations and thus your basis of interpretation? Now THAT is a possibility.

Of course, it is not a requirement, either. Assuming all of the above (which was built into my question to Puritan), either you have a pre-existing bias and have thus interpreted Scripture accordingly, or you have interpreted Scripture apart from your commitment to socialism (or anti-capitalism?) and have thus taken an anti-American stance.

So, take it as you will. I was asking PL a question, and I posted it publically as I appreciate the implications of the question.

I think you have completely misread my statements.

Please go back and quote what you see that makes you believe that I am anti-capitalist, or anti-american.

We'll go from there.

[Blacknad]

Jac.

You are doing a great job of confirming what I thought about American Conservative Christianity.

Despite the fact that I have never once defended socialism, we have gone past that now and we come down to a simple question based upon scripture.

I am starting another post on the War in Iraq - you may want to have your say.

But forgetting all of the socialism/capitalism/anti-Americanism, please answer the question below.


QUESTION. Can you please explain how we are obeying the command to 'LOVE OUR NEIGHBOR AS OURSELVES' when we accumulate more of the worlds resources than we actually need to live, when we are surrounded by people who are suffering because they don't have enough?

Regards,

Blacknad.

[Jac3510]

Canuck, like I said, it's just an impression I got. Maybe I'm wrong. Are you saying that you aren't a socialist and/or don't support socialism? If so, that's fine . . . my QUESTION was to PL if he got the same vibe. Maybe I just misread you, and others, as I'm overly sensative to this particular subject.

Black:

You are free to your own thoughts on American Christian Conservatism, just as I have mine on socialism of all kinds. I'll not continue in this debate, as I genuinely cannot maintain composure concerning this particular issue. No disrespect, but I'm out. While PL and I disagree on virtually everything, it seems that he and I are going to agree on this issue, so take his answers as my own.

God bless

[bluesman]

Who here is the anti-american?????

I married a lady from the United States , therefore its certainly not me.

Who ever said that the United States had the exclusive on capitalism?

Yeah sure I have many thing I don't like about the USA in the political area.
I could point out a few things that are aweful scars on the history of the USA.
What would that have to do with god though?

However, on a person to person level, I ask whats is in the persons heart.
Love or Hate? I find people with good hearts that are not christian and I find people with too much hate in their hearts that say they are christian.

I can't say my own country is all perfect either?

Mike the Bluesman
God Bless

[Blacknad]

I am not a socialist, but I have big issues with unrestrained capitalism.

I am not anti-American and it surprises me that people take criticism of capitalism as an attack on America.

I have severe problems with capitalism in the UK where I live and the way the church here has fully embraced affluence and wealth and not set itself apart from the world.

Blacknad.