Were early Christians socialists?

[August]

Interesting. You base your whole life on Christianity (as I do) that has no verifiable facts to sustain it.

We are going to disagree on that too.

And yet here you refuse to accept something because:

1. There are no verifiable facts.
2. It upsets your unconditional faith in the American government.

For sure I won't accept something based on wild conspiracy theories, without any facts to support it. As for your second point, I made it perfectly clear earlier that I do not support anyone unconditionally, I, and many others that live here, have major issues with how they are handling the economy, immigration issues and social issues like abortion. You are ascribing something to me that is simply untrue.

Putting your faith in Christ is sensible and he will not let you down. Having the same amount of faith in a man is unwise.

I thinkyou are presumptious in trying to lecture me. You are the one who is off on wild-eyed goose chases based in conspircacy theories propogated by those who are enemies of the USA. I simply let the facts speak, it has nothing to do with trusting any man. Your statement that I trust any man as much as Christ is as stupid as the rest of your conspiracies.

At least Jesus could string a sentence together.

If you cannot give facts, revert to insults. Typical.

And as for conspiracy - no. This is simply about people in power without the integrity to discharge their responsibilities ethically. The feeding frenzy over contracts in Iraq amongst friends of the administration is ample proof.

Then where is the proof, sunshine? Has it ever crossed your mind that those companies who got those contracts are the best qualifeid to do the work? For example, Haliburton's frame contract with the US government goes back to the Clinton administration, and there is none more closely audited and scrutinized. The Republican-controlled senate recently held hearings where they called the Presidents of the biggest oil companies out on the price of gasoline at the pump, while these companies are making massive profits. Some friends they are...

Again, where is your proof of unethical behavior? You keep talking about the ample proof, and things that are so obvious, but you never get past innuendo, based on what you read from America's enemies. It is your free choice to pick your side here, and it's clear whose side you are on.

I will not expect you to agree. We are probably wasting our time. I know how pointless it is to debate with fundamentalists.

So, what is a "fundamentalist"? In this context, I guess you are inferring that "fundametalists" are stupid, becasue they will blindly support someone, regardless. You have not given a single fact to support your statements, just inferences, yet when someone does not want to agree with you, you want to label them and stop the discussion.

I agree we are wasting our time, since you want to keep on making blatantly false statements, while supporting those who stand against the USA.

[Blacknad]

At least Jesus could string a sentence together.

If you cannot give facts, revert to insults. Typical.

August, I wasn't referring to you. I was referring to the strange situation where a man who cannot speak properly manages to become the leader of the free world.

Blacknad.

[August]

I know Blacknad, I know. Funny how such a guy can also manage to deceive so many people, including the whole UN Security Councial and NATO's general command.

Hey, I know this is a passionate debate, but I sure hope that we can agree that all of this is inconsequential when it comes to our shared faith in God.

I apologise for getting a bit carried away here.

[Canuckster1127]

Blacknad, while agreeing with some of your definition of the problem, I think that some of your comments regarding the US government and US christians in general border on the outrageous. I understand that in different countries views of the US are very strongly negative. Some of those reasons are legitimate and earned. I certainly do not advocate outright endorement of the actions of any nation and as the US is the sole super-power on the world Political scene, it certainly makes sense that the actions of the US have a tremendous impact on the rest of the world and as such, more scrutiny is warranted.

At the core of Christianity there stands the individual who has submitted his life to Christ's rule. This process of dying to oneself and subjugating the desires of the old nature is what makes Christianity different from any other religion. People are free to listen to the promptings of the Holy Spirit and shape their own understanding of the finer points of Christian living. This freedom of the individual Christian protects against the tyranny of organized religion and the corruption by power that comes with it. The believer is free to find their place within the body of Christ.

Now this has been called the quiet revolution - one individual at a time. Because Christianity understands that real change is wrought in the hearts of individuals.

This is why all government is doomed to failure. Christians should be able to critically examine government and call it out and hold it to account, and be the first to speak out when power starts to work its inevitable evil. Christ was for laying down power and taking up love. Government is often about power and is therefore often antithetical to Christianity's essence.

So the British government and Blair's selling of honours and peerages for cash donations or the American government and Bush's past refusal to take climate change seriously and instead cozying up to the oil companies, should be called out by Christians. The fact is that Blair and Bush both claim to be Christians but aren't immune from the corruption of power.

It is sad to see that some of these acts are defended or denied by Christians who have lost their saltiness.

Blacknad.

Apparently you have some pipeline into seeing people hearts that I don't.

I can't speak for Blaire or Bush. All I can do is seek to understand what their positions and actions are and then seek to exercise my franchise to vote as my conscience, reliant upon God, dictates.

I understand political passion. In fact, I've toned down tremendously over what I would be saying in this type of conversation, even recently.

That being said, I think you do many a disservice with this type of rhetoric. No-one denied your right to vote your conscience. When the need extends beyond supporting what you believe in and those who promote those causes to questioning the religious convictions and beliefs of those who lead, then I think you need to ask yourself if you are indeed demonstrating the teachings of scripture as presented in Romans 13.

Christ never called upon Governments to usher in His Kingdom. That is the calling of individuals and the Church.

Beware what you presume Governments grant. That which finds its source in Government can also be taken away by that same government.

In any event, I've said my peace and I'm sorry to see the level of angst and trouble in your heart that this is evidently causing.

I've been there, done that and frankly learned enough not to walk in that path anymore.

My power to change Government is limited but needs to be exercised where it can be by voting, campaignig, and even legally where justified.

My power to change my own actions, when coupled with the leading of Christ through His Holy Spirit is a far more worthy and effective goal.

Interestingly enough, I've found my power to influence others is greatly enhanced when I follow the route of starting with me than when seeking to use politics to have the government force others to do something, but that's just me.

Peace to you,

Bart

[bluesman]

I wasn't going to get to involved in this "anti-american" or not side to the discussion, but I wanted to supply something that I think is missing.

I find most people everywhere including USA, Britain, and Canada lack an understanding of history. I even included myself, but I am trying to change that.

A lot of people tended to think these situations in Afghanistan, Osma Bin Laden, Iraq and Iran in conflict with the USA, Britain and others just started recently.

The history goes back much further. As far as Iraq and Iran it goes back to at least the 1920s when Britian and the USA were fighting over their "piece of the pie" in development of middle east oil.
Then we have other things to be aware of like the Shah of Iran, the Iran-Iraq War, Iran-Contra scandal, etc etc.

My point is that to form an opinion on the current war without understanding the history is wrong.

First understand the history.

http://www.zmag.org/zmag/articles/ShalomIranIraq.html


Take a look at the above website and then tell me what you think.
Its a long read, but worth the effort in my opinion.

Mike
Bluesman

[Blacknad]

I know Blacknad, I know. Funny how such a guy can also manage to deceive so many people, including the whole UN Security Councial and NATO's general command.

Hey, I know this is a passionate debate, but I sure hope that we can agree that all of this is inconsequential when it comes to our shared faith in God.

I apologise for getting a bit carried away here.

August,

This post warmed my heart - thank you. You are dead right. I ought to calm down and not elevate these issues above other more important things. I hope you don't think I'm questioning your faith - far from it, you are a sound Christian firmly routed in the Bible and I have learnt from reading your posts and your responses to some of my questions in other threads. I know a good man when I see one. I think it is one of the markers of Christians, that they can disagree vehemently on issues and yet still reach out and find an appreciation for one another. We have a shared life in Christ and I will try not to forget that. Thanks again.

Blacknad.

[August]

Blacknad,

One of the really tough things with this kind of medium is that you cannot see or hear the other person's tone of voice and body language, so it's really easy to take things the wrong way, and reading back through the thread I thought that both of us could construe things from the other that is not true because of that. I'm sure if we could meet in person this would be a civil discussion.

One of the great things about being fellow Christians is that we are bound together as brothers in Christ, and regardless of earthly affiliations and political beliefs, the eternal message stands. I did not ever get the idea that you were questioning my faith or anything like that, and I hope that it did not come across like I did yours. I am very sensitive to the fact that each of us have a personal relationship with God that cannot ever be fully understood by another person, so it is extremely unfair to question someone's faith, especially in this medium, with its limitations.

God bless.