Does Babylon have to be a city?

[Fortigurn]

The vatican is a city state which makes it totaly independent from Rome, politically. The vatican is so named the vatican because of the Hill it sits upon.

The equating Rome and the vatican as one is an incorrect assumpttion IMHO.

I have not been equating Rome with the Vatican.

[Tugger]

Babylon, derived from the word babel, actually means confusion, to confound. The Babylon of the end times very well could mean the confusion in the end times; the confusion in regards to the true word of God; after all, the famine in the end times is not for bread, but for hearing the word of God, Amos 8:11 - Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD: If this is so, then Babylon is not a city in any particular country, but used spiritually to cover the confusion in all of the earth, pretty much what it is like today. Sounds like this famine of the end times is already in effect.

[Canuckster1127]

Rome seems the more likely city in my mind just based on the common understanding of the time.

Isn't commonly understood by many, particularly preterists, that the 7 headed beast represents the caesars? If this is the case and that ties into Roman leadership, wouldn't that be a supporting understanding that makes the allusion to Rome consistent with the theme.

Just asking. I haven't come to a conclusion on this yet.

[puritan lad]

Rome seems the more likely city in my mind just based on the common understanding of the time.

Isn't commonly understood by many, particularly preterists, that the 7 headed beast represents the caesars? If this is the case and that ties into Roman leadership, wouldn't that be a supporting understanding that makes the allusion to Rome consistent with the theme.

Just asking. I haven't come to a conclusion on this yet.

Problem: There were only 6 Caesars.

Most Preterists view Babylon, the Great City, as the same Great City of Revelation 11:1-8: Jerusalem. It was Jerusalem who was responsible for "all the righteous blood shed upon the earth (Matthew 23:35). It was Jerusalem that the Bible repeatedly refers to as a harlot (Isaiah 1:21, Ezekiel 16, 23). It was Jerusalem that was destroyed by the Beast (Rome).

[FFC]

The reference to the seven hills does fit in regards to Jerusalem.

Jerusalem was a large city spreading beyond the walls of the fort and onto the seven hills there during the time of Jesus and the Apostles. It's seven hills are; 1.) Mount Gared; 2.) Mount Goath; 3.) Mount Acra; 4.) Mount Bezetha; 5.) Mount Moriah; 6.) Mount Ophel; 7.) Mount Zion. Sometimes, some will substitute the first four with the Mount of Olives, Mount of Offence, Mount of Evil Counsel (Sophus), and Mount Calvaryor (Golgotha).


http://askelm.com/prophecy/p000201.htm

http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=54

http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=54

http://members.aol.com/johnprh/whore2.html#seven


What clenches Jerusalem over Rome for me is the following verse - Rev 18:24 "And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth."

Now why does this clench it for me. It is not a simple answer but as quick as I can it rests on several major facts. In Rev chapter 14 there is the following statement by an angel "Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication." Key question what is the wine of the wrath of her fornication?

The answer I believe is the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth. From Rev 17:4 we find the whore holding a golden cup in her hand and full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication. Then in Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus:

so the cup holds the wine and she is drunken from the contents of the golden cup which is the blood of martyrs. So the wine is the blood of the martyrs.

Now comes my use of Jesus order of reaping from Matthew 13. The order of harvest is first the tares then the wheat. If you apply this rule to the two harvest of Rev 14 - you will find that the blood of the winepress is the blood of the saints which is poured out onto Jerusalem becuase that is where the Lord returns not ROME! so for Rev 18 to be fulfilled literally the blood is poured upon Jerusalem which I believe fits much better than Rome. From the first mention of great city in chapter 11 which even points out Jerusalem without even thinking the "Great City" is Jerusalem
see Rev 11:8 -

And what is really astounding is that the seven mountains represent seven kings. Lets look at the riddle are you ready

The riddle is as follows And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. and the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eight, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.


The first five are babylon, Medes-Persians, Assyria, Greece, and Egypt
one is - Rome (6th)
not yet come - ? 7th but also the eighth.

What is really interesting is that jerusalem literally fulfills the seven kings and a eighth with the physical mountains because when Jesus returns mount of olive splits in two so six plus two is eight

Hmmmm there is than number Eight again.

Jerusalem better fits the great city of Rev and in my mind is the correct answer over rome.

Shalom
Mark

Wow. Very impressive!

I feel like I'm kicking a dead horse on this thread now but.....

I just heard a sermon today about how the speaker thought Babylon was Rome, which sits on 7 hills. There was also a comparison of Rev 12 and 17 showing the contrast between the woman in Chapter 12 which obviously symbolized the Nation of Isreal, and the woman in chapter 17 which symbolized a system completely sold out to sin and blasphemy (not Jerusalem).

I don't know which to believe, but when it comes right down to it I don't think it really matters much.