Tanniyn (Behemoth / Lviathan)

[tyler_demerhcant]

I will start this with one question.

What is the youngest known dinosaur, or, how old was the last dinosaur?

[BGoodForGoodSake]

I will start this with one question.

What is the youngest known dinosaur, or, how old was the last dinosaur?

There have so far been no dinosaur findings past the K/T boundary.

K stands for the Cretaceous Period which is the last age of the dinosaurs, and T stands for Tertiary which is the period where mammals of all types first show up in the fossil record.

This is a layer is found throughout the world and consists of a thin layer of clay and abnormally high concentrations of iridium.

Information for the dating of this layer can be found here.

Age calculations based on measurements taken from the various sites agree to a date of 65 million years ago.

One should keep in mind that the failure to find dinosaur fossils past the K/T boundary does not necessarily mean that dinosaurs did not survive into the Tertiary Period.

[tyler_demerhcant]

So my question then becomes, what about the dinosaur like descriptions found in the bible.

Tanniyn, or DRAGON, is a word used in the bible.

History also speaks of dragons, alot of which many people's wrote about and told stories about.

Behemoth and Leviathan are two creatures described elaborately within the bible. Their descriptions, however, do not fit the descriptions of any known living creature.

They do, fit the discriptions of known creatures that have long been extinct.

Brachiosaurus and Chronosaurus (forgive me if the spelling is wrong)

HOw then, could there be an account of creatures that have been extinct for millions of years.

Even if you believe the bible is fake or false, the fact is that someone wrote about them long before any fossils were ever descovered. THis would create a serious problem for scientist.

I have not yet recieved an explenation. Perhaps someone here could be so glad as to enlighten me.

[Canuckster1127]

So my question then becomes, what about the dinosaur like descriptions found in the bible.

Tanniyn, or DRAGON, is a word used in the bible.

History also speaks of dragons, alot of which many people's wrote about and told stories about.

Behemoth and Leviathan are two creatures described elaborately within the bible. Their descriptions, however, do not fit the descriptions of any known living creature.

They do, fit the discriptions of known creatures that have long been extinct.

Brachiosaurus and Chronosaurus (forgive me if the spelling is wrong)

HOw then, could there be an account of creatures that have been extinct for millions of years.

Even if you believe the bible is fake or false, the fact is that someone wrote about them long before any fossils were ever descovered. THis would create a serious problem for scientist.

I have not yet recieved an explenation. Perhaps someone here could be so glad as to enlighten me.

I think I know the passages you are referring to, but just to humor me, why don't you quote the verses that you believe indicate dinosaurs coexisting with humans.

[tyler_demerhcant]

Behemoth ( Job 40:15-24 )

Leviathan ( Job chapter 41, Psalm 104:25,26 and Isaiah 27:1 )

[Canuckster1127]

Behemoth ( Job 40:15-24 )

Leviathan ( Job chapter 41, Psalm 104:25,26 and Isaiah 27:1 )

http://www.answersincreation.org/job4041a.htm

This is a pretty good link that gives an explanation.

Bottom line, leviathan doesn't appear to be a literal animal for the reason that there never has been a "dragon" that breathes fire. There are strong arguments from some that this is a crocodile. THere's no such thing as a fire breathing crocodile either.

Behemoth is probably a hippopotamus.

Young Earth Creationists claim they are dinosaurs. I think they try for that more out of their need to try and prove dinosaurs co-existed with man than out of anything based in the text itself. Frankly, I think dinosaurs are striking enough animals that more than this would have been said in more places if they coexisted with man on the earth just 6,000 or even 10,000 years ago.

It's frankly, just a ridiculous claim that has nothing whatsoever to speak for it other than a theory in search of evidence.

[tyler_demerhcant]

Behemoth ( Job 40:15-24 )

Leviathan ( Job chapter 41, Psalm 104:25,26 and Isaiah 27:1 )

http://www.answersincreation.org/job4041a.htm

This is a pretty good link that gives an explanation.

Bottom line, leviathan doesn't appear to be a literal animal for the reason that there never has been a "dragon" that breathes fire. There are strong arguments from some that this is a crocodile. THere's no such thing as a fire breathing crocodile either.

Behemoth is probably a hippopotamus.

Young Earth Creationists claim they are dinosaurs. I think they try for that more out of their need to try and prove dinosaurs co-existed with man than out of anything based in the text itself. Frankly, I think dinosaurs are striking enough animals that more than this would have been said in more places if they coexisted with man on the earth just 6,000 or even 10,000 years ago.

It's frankly, just a ridiculous claim that has nothing whatsoever to speak for it other than a theory in search of evidence.

Actually, I disagree. I strongly believe in a young earth. You yourself have not given me a specific reason in reference to scripture of why I should not. Also, the author of the article was not very articulate about it's explenation.

I have to read my bible versus again and I will respond, but I think that this article is a ridiculous claim that has nothing whatsoever to speak for it other than a theory in search of discrediting the interpretation of many young earth creationists.

[ray]

Over the years they have found some fish that have thought to have been exinct for millions of years. To me, these are akin to dinosaurs and prove that 'dinosaurs' are present with us today. I can't remeber the name of the fish but I remember one in the '60's or 70's they found. Maybe someone could help with the name, I think it began with a 'c'. I'll try to find it if anyone is interested.

Ray

[Canuckster1127]

Behemoth ( Job 40:15-24 )

Leviathan ( Job chapter 41, Psalm 104:25,26 and Isaiah 27:1 )

http://www.answersincreation.org/job4041a.htm

This is a pretty good link that gives an explanation.

Bottom line, leviathan doesn't appear to be a literal animal for the reason that there never has been a "dragon" that breathes fire. There are strong arguments from some that this is a crocodile. THere's no such thing as a fire breathing crocodile either.

Behemoth is probably a hippopotamus.

Young Earth Creationists claim they are dinosaurs. I think they try for that more out of their need to try and prove dinosaurs co-existed with man than out of anything based in the text itself. Frankly, I think dinosaurs are striking enough animals that more than this would have been said in more places if they coexisted with man on the earth just 6,000 or even 10,000 years ago.

It's frankly, just a ridiculous claim that has nothing whatsoever to speak for it other than a theory in search of evidence.

Actually, I disagree. I strongly believe in a young earth. You yourself have not given me a specific reason in reference to scripture of why I should not. Also, the author of the article was not very articulate about it's explenation.

I have to read my bible versus again and I will respond, but I think that this article is a ridiculous claim that has nothing whatsoever to speak for it other than a theory in search of discrediting the interpretation of many young earth creationists.

OK Tyler.

It's fine that we disagree and I respect that you believe otherwise.

Even Ken Hamm, who is a very strong Young Earth Creationist, says that these verses are inconclusive.

If you believe otherwise and think that this proves that dinosaurs and man coexisted, then it's up to you to prove it.

There are many threads here that outline an old earth position including several that I participate in that outline my point of view. If you need me to link you to them, feel free. I'm very open to discussing them with you and hearing what you have to say.

[BGoodForGoodSake]

Over the years they have found some fish that have thought to have been exinct for millions of years. To me, these are akin to dinosaurs and prove that 'dinosaurs' are present with us today. I can't remeber the name of the fish but I remember one in the '60's or 70's they found. Maybe someone could help with the name, I think it began with a 'c'. I'll try to find it if anyone is interested.

Ray

The fish is called the coelacanth. It is a lobed finned fish which was thought to have gone extinct.

[tyler_demerhcant]

I will not try to prove this fact and I agree that these scriptures are inconclusive.

However, I will state my case for why I believe that Leviathan and Behemoth were both dinosaurs, not animals. Also why Dragons were real.

1. Behemoth

- It “eats grass like an ox.”
- It “moves his tail like a cedar.” (In Hebrew, this literally reads, “he lets - hang his tail like a cedar.”)
- Its “bones are like beams of bronze,
- His ribs like bars of iron.”
- “He is the first of the ways of God.”
- “He lies under the lotus trees,
- In a covert of reeds and marsh.”

Firstly, let's point out that it is my understanding that, even though the author of the article refers to Behemoth as a hippo, he claims:

This is the prevailing view of young earth creation science. They claim the “moveth his tail like a cedar” is referring to a sauropod dinosaur (a “saurapod” is a plant-eating dinosaur, such as Apatosaurus, Diplodicus, etc.)

But let's explore that. Elephants and hippos do not have tails like cedar trees. Nor does any animal on the planet.
I believe that Behemoth is Brachiosaurus, as do many others.

15 Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.

This definitely falls in line with what is agreed upon by scientists of what a Brachiosaurus ate.

16 Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly.

This also shows consistency because drawings and depictations of brachiosaurus show this.

17 He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.

Some bibles and study bibles will translate the word “behemoth” as “elephant” or “hippopotamus.” Others will put a note at the edge or bottom of the page, stating that behemoth was probably an elephant or a hippopotamus. Although an elephant or hippopotamus can eat grass (or lie in a covert of reeds and marsh), neither an elephant or a hippopotamus has a “tail like a cedar” (that is, a tail like a large, tapered tree trunk). In your kid's dinosaur book you will find lots of animals that have “tails like a cedar.”

It “moves his tail like a cedar.” (In Hebrew, this literally reads, “he lets hang his tail like a cedar.”)

19 He is the chief of the ways of God: he that made him can make his sword to approach unto him.

We would expect behemoth to be a large land animal whose bones are like beams of bronze and so forth, so whatever a behemoth is, it is large. A key phrase is “He is the first of the ways of God.” This phrase in the original Hebrew implied that behemoth was the biggest animal created. Although an elephant or a hippopotamus are big, they are less than one-tenth the size of a Brachiosaurus, the largest (complete) dinosaur ever discovered.[1] A Brachiosaurus could therefore easily be described as “the first of the ways of God.”

Some paleontologists have found fragmentary leg bones, ribs, or vertebrae which they propose belong to “new” sauropods larger than Brachiosaurus. Examples of these include Amphicoelias, Argentinasaurus, Sauroposeidon, Seismosaurus, Supersaurus and Ultrasaurus. There currently is not enough evidence to really determine the size of any of these, and some paleontologists believe that they are merely large examples of known dinosaurs like Brachiosaurus or Diplodocus. In any case, only the “modern scientific name” of behemoth would change. The point would still remain that behemoth refers to a dinosaur, not a “modern animal” like an elephant or hippopotamus.

2. Leviathan

It is claimed that dinosaurs and other creatures do not breath fire. However...

Unlike behemoth, who is huge, Leviathan is ferocious and terrifying. Many references (we have not listed them all) refer to the sea, so Leviathan is probably a sea creature. Although some bibles refer to Leviathan as an alligator or crocodile (and both of these are fierce) neither of these is a sea creature. They like the water, but they spend much of their time on land. Further, the question “Who can open the doors of his face. . . .” implies that nobody can open Leviathan's jaws. Although an alligator's jaws cannot normally be forced open, a punch to their sensitive snout or poke in eye might startle them enough to release their grip.[2] Although this is a good description of an alligator characteristic, it does not fit perfectly with the description of Leviathan, which in the context of the Bible was supposed to describe an essentially impossible event, and we are not done yet.

The description of the scales is interesting. Several verses describe these great scales. Compared to Leviathan's armor, iron is like straw and arrows ca not make it flee. Let's face it, an arrow can do a lot of damage to a crocodile or alligator. This is not a description of either of them—or any living animal we are aware of.

And now for the key ingredient: fire. It is hard to read Job 41:18-21 without realizing the Bible is telling us that Leviathan breathes fire. That alone will eliminate almost every living animal. Yes, there is one animal like that in today's world. It is called a bombardier beetle. This beetle is a native of Central America, and has a nozzle in its hind end that acts like a little flame thrower. It sprays a high-temperature jet of gas (fueled by hydroquinones and hydrogen peroxide with oxidative enzymes) for protection. Now, if a Central American beetle can do it, so could Leviathan. By the way, crocodiles and alligators are out of the picture on this one, don't you agree?

Before we leave the topic of fire, there are two more notes you may find interesting:

The history of every culture is filled with stories of fire-breathing dragons. If you think about it, in all the past ages wouldn't someone have made up a story of a fire-breathing lion or something? Nobody did because the dragon stories are based on truth, and only “dragons” breathed fire. It is easy to imagine Leviathan as a member of the dragon (tanniyn) family. (Plus, Isaiah 27:1 strongly implies this connection.)
Many fossil dinosaur skulls contain unexplained, empty passages. Scientists have not been able to guess the reason for these passages. Would it make sense that some dinosaurs used these passages as “gas tanks” for the combustible mixture used to “breathe fire?” We believe it does.
Comparing all this information to the description in your kid's dinosaur book, you may come up with the conclusion that Leviathan is a kronosaurus. We have heard (and read) other suggestions, but the kronosaurus is the best match of any known creature to the description of Leviathan.

Also, let's discuss the term "dragon" or "tanniyn".

Dinosaur is a modern term. One might say that kronosaurus is not a dinosaur, but I am not saying that. I am saying that Kronosaurus and Brachiosaurus are "dragons".

The modern name of "dragon" implies a fire breathing creature that flies. However, many pictures and ancient drawings have depicted dragons in many forms, much like dinosaurs we see today.

Now I understand that Old Earth Creationists can never possibly believe this, even with the case I have presented.

All I ask is for agreement that if the earth was young, this would be possible and that hippo's and alligators are out of the question.

[Canuckster1127]

I will not try to prove this fact and I agree that these scriptures are inconclusive.

However, I will state my case for why I believe that Leviathan and Behemoth were both dinosaurs, not animals. Also why Dragons were real.

1. Behemoth

- It “eats grass like an ox.”
- It “moves his tail like a cedar.” (In Hebrew, this literally reads, “he lets - hang his tail like a cedar.”)
- Its “bones are like beams of bronze,
- His ribs like bars of iron.”
- “He is the first of the ways of God.”
- “He lies under the lotus trees,
- In a covert of reeds and marsh.”

Firstly, let's point out that it is my understanding that, even though the author of the article refers to Behemoth as a hippo, he claims:

This is the prevailing view of young earth creation science. They claim the “moveth his tail like a cedar” is referring to a sauropod dinosaur (a “saurapod” is a plant-eating dinosaur, such as Apatosaurus, Diplodicus, etc.)

But let's explore that. Elephants and hippos do not have tails like cedar trees. Nor does any animal on the planet.
I believe that Behemoth is Brachiosaurus, as do many others.

15 Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.

This definitely falls in line with what is agreed upon by scientists of what a Brachiosaurus ate.

16 Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly.

This also shows consistency because drawings and depictations of brachiosaurus show this.

17 He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.

Some bibles and study bibles will translate the word “behemoth” as “elephant” or “hippopotamus.” Others will put a note at the edge or bottom of the page, stating that behemoth was probably an elephant or a hippopotamus. Although an elephant or hippopotamus can eat grass (or lie in a covert of reeds and marsh), neither an elephant or a hippopotamus has a “tail like a cedar” (that is, a tail like a large, tapered tree trunk). In your kid's dinosaur book you will find lots of animals that have “tails like a cedar.”

It “moves his tail like a cedar.” (In Hebrew, this literally reads, “he lets hang his tail like a cedar.”)

19 He is the chief of the ways of God: he that made him can make his sword to approach unto him.

We would expect behemoth to be a large land animal whose bones are like beams of bronze and so forth, so whatever a behemoth is, it is large. A key phrase is “He is the first of the ways of God.” This phrase in the original Hebrew implied that behemoth was the biggest animal created. Although an elephant or a hippopotamus are big, they are less than one-tenth the size of a Brachiosaurus, the largest (complete) dinosaur ever discovered.[1] A Brachiosaurus could therefore easily be described as “the first of the ways of God.”

Some paleontologists have found fragmentary leg bones, ribs, or vertebrae which they propose belong to “new” sauropods larger than Brachiosaurus. Examples of these include Amphicoelias, Argentinasaurus, Sauroposeidon, Seismosaurus, Supersaurus and Ultrasaurus. There currently is not enough evidence to really determine the size of any of these, and some paleontologists believe that they are merely large examples of known dinosaurs like Brachiosaurus or Diplodocus. In any case, only the “modern scientific name” of behemoth would change. The point would still remain that behemoth refers to a dinosaur, not a “modern animal” like an elephant or hippopotamus.

2. Leviathan

It is claimed that dinosaurs and other creatures do not breath fire. However...

Unlike behemoth, who is huge, Leviathan is ferocious and terrifying. Many references (we have not listed them all) refer to the sea, so Leviathan is probably a sea creature. Although some bibles refer to Leviathan as an alligator or crocodile (and both of these are fierce) neither of these is a sea creature. They like the water, but they spend much of their time on land. Further, the question “Who can open the doors of his face. . . .” implies that nobody can open Leviathan's jaws. Although an alligator's jaws cannot normally be forced open, a punch to their sensitive snout or poke in eye might startle them enough to release their grip.[2] Although this is a good description of an alligator characteristic, it does not fit perfectly with the description of Leviathan, which in the context of the Bible was supposed to describe an essentially impossible event, and we are not done yet.

The description of the scales is interesting. Several verses describe these great scales. Compared to Leviathan's armor, iron is like straw and arrows ca not make it flee. Let's face it, an arrow can do a lot of damage to a crocodile or alligator. This is not a description of either of them—or any living animal we are aware of.

And now for the key ingredient: fire. It is hard to read Job 41:18-21 without realizing the Bible is telling us that Leviathan breathes fire. That alone will eliminate almost every living animal. Yes, there is one animal like that in today's world. It is called a bombardier beetle. This beetle is a native of Central America, and has a nozzle in its hind end that acts like a little flame thrower. It sprays a high-temperature jet of gas (fueled by hydroquinones and hydrogen peroxide with oxidative enzymes) for protection. Now, if a Central American beetle can do it, so could Leviathan. By the way, crocodiles and alligators are out of the picture on this one, don't you agree?

Before we leave the topic of fire, there are two more notes you may find interesting:

The history of every culture is filled with stories of fire-breathing dragons. If you think about it, in all the past ages wouldn't someone have made up a story of a fire-breathing lion or something? Nobody did because the dragon stories are based on truth, and only “dragons” breathed fire. It is easy to imagine Leviathan as a member of the dragon (tanniyn) family. (Plus, Isaiah 27:1 strongly implies this connection.)
Many fossil dinosaur skulls contain unexplained, empty passages. Scientists have not been able to guess the reason for these passages. Would it make sense that some dinosaurs used these passages as “gas tanks” for the combustible mixture used to “breathe fire?” We believe it does.
Comparing all this information to the description in your kid's dinosaur book, you may come up with the conclusion that Leviathan is a kronosaurus. We have heard (and read) other suggestions, but the kronosaurus is the best match of any known creature to the description of Leviathan.

Also, let's discuss the term "dragon" or "tanniyn".

Dinosaur is a modern term. One might say that kronosaurus is not a dinosaur, but I am not saying that. I am saying that Kronosaurus and Brachiosaurus are "dragons".

The modern name of "dragon" implies a fire breathing creature that flies. However, many pictures and ancient drawings have depicted dragons in many forms, much like dinosaurs we see today.

Now I understand that Old Earth Creationists can never possibly believe this, even with the case I have presented.

All I ask is for agreement that if the earth was young, this would be possible and that hippo's and alligators are out of the question.

Tyler. I understand you want agreement on this, but I can't give it to you.

The logic of all of this is just too tortured for me.

Corelating a bombadier beatle and then leaping not just cross species but cross-animal kingdom is just a tad too energetic for me.

Never mind that there is no credible evidence that humans and dinosaurs ever coexisted. The language of these passages doesn't allow for these kind of leaps.

I'm content to agree that the language is not conclusive.

I'm not particularly worried about it to be honest. I think it is entirely possible that the language in these instances is figurative. It is possible that the author of Job, inspired by the Holy Spirit and the people whom this was originally written to may have been familiar with a dinosaur skeleton or even some form of animal, real, legendary or mythological.

Frankly, if the earth was only 6,000 years old, and mankind as old as the earth (minus 5 days) I think there would be a whole lot more in terms of corporate recollection of dinsaurs etc if they existed right up until the flood. God is certainly capable of anything so that's not the issue. The issue for me is that there is no credible evidence in favor of such a theory and there is kinds of evidence dictating against it. Further there is no need scripturally to create such a system.

[sandy_mcd]

- It “eats grass like an ox.”

How fixed are you on this grass eating? There seems to have been little or no grass during the time of the dinosaurs.

During the Neogene modern mammals and flowering plants evolve, as well as many strange mammals that are no longer around. The most astonishing thing to happen during the early Neogene was the evolution of grass. This led to the evolution of long-legged running animals adapted to life on the savanna and prairie. The horse family - Equiidae - was an especial success story during the Neogene. Horses and other grazing mammals evolved high-crowned teeth to cope with a diet of abrasive grass.

[BGoodForGoodSake]

Wasn't Job supposed to have taken place before even the flood?

Just a question.

[Canuckster1127]

Wasn't Job supposed to have taken place before even the flood?

Just a question.

Probably. Job is likely the oldest book in terms of original writing dates in the Old Testament. Author unknown. Some speculate Moses but there's no concensus.