Jay, if you use the oldest texts we have (The Septuagint and the Samaritan Pentateuch) you will find that the words for "light" are two different words. The first one means "fire" or "torch" while the second one means "illuminators"
I used the LXX for this. You can see the two different words at: http://www.septuagint-interlinear-greek ... enesis.pdf
Reading and downloading the LXX interlinear is free but you have to purchase the index and concordance. There are not too many concordances that are based on the LXX so I really like this particular site.
This could be that God created the fire first (which we know the sun, and earth are made of fire (and perhaps the moon and other planets). Please see my site. I think it will help with this. See the Creation and Flood section at: http://biblehistoryevi.freeforumsite.co ... historyevi
Can we really be so stupid
-
meforevidence
- Recognized Member
- Posts: 78
- Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 3:15 pm
-
bluesman
- Established Member
- Posts: 236
- Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2005 5:50 am
- Christian: No
- Location: Canada
Creation story
I use to doubt the creation story too , but I am finding it remarkable that it holds true.
I must qualify that statement though. I think our english translations are very flawed. Now I don't know hebrew so I have to rely on those that do to explain the differences.
One thing is the hebrew doesn't say that the sun was created on the 4th day.
What KJV translates as whale is actually a reference to dinosaurs.
The creation story is very brief so how could it explain all the hows of creation.
Was not man more interested in who than in how back when the creation story was written.
The creation story predates Moses and is old than this Sumerian version.
Adam means man in Hebrew . Eve was not actually made of a rib,but it symbolic to teach something.
Adam being created from dust also has symbolic meaning.
The existence of prehistoric man doesn't invalidate the creation story.
Evolution if true doesn't invalidate the creation story.
It is well accepted now that the universe had a beginning and whatever begins to exist must have a cause.
We don't know all the hows, but God is that cause.
I must qualify that statement though. I think our english translations are very flawed. Now I don't know hebrew so I have to rely on those that do to explain the differences.
One thing is the hebrew doesn't say that the sun was created on the 4th day.
What KJV translates as whale is actually a reference to dinosaurs.
The creation story is very brief so how could it explain all the hows of creation.
Was not man more interested in who than in how back when the creation story was written.
The creation story predates Moses and is old than this Sumerian version.
Adam means man in Hebrew . Eve was not actually made of a rib,but it symbolic to teach something.
Adam being created from dust also has symbolic meaning.
The existence of prehistoric man doesn't invalidate the creation story.
Evolution if true doesn't invalidate the creation story.
It is well accepted now that the universe had a beginning and whatever begins to exist must have a cause.
We don't know all the hows, but God is that cause.
-
bluesman
- Established Member
- Posts: 236
- Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2005 5:50 am
- Christian: No
- Location: Canada
Why?
Do you mean Why did God create the Universe?
Why did God create man?
I don't believe God directly answers the question in the Bible, but we can guess.
God is love, and he the godhead was alone. He had the power to create so why not use that power. He want reproduce himself in a way. Yet, he had a desire to be loved by us of our own freewill. That being true love.
Take a close read of the 10 commandments and see what you think.
Mike
Bluesman
Why did God create man?
I don't believe God directly answers the question in the Bible, but we can guess.
God is love, and he the godhead was alone. He had the power to create so why not use that power. He want reproduce himself in a way. Yet, he had a desire to be loved by us of our own freewill. That being true love.
Take a close read of the 10 commandments and see what you think.
Mike
Bluesman
-
Iggy
- Recognized Member
- Posts: 84
- Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2006 7:05 pm
- Christian: Yes
- Sex: Male
- Creation Position: Undecided
- Location: Germany
- Contact:
ok, if God always existed... what was he doin before he created earth? why all of a sudden would he choose to create us? i mean, what, he was checkin his email one day and said... "hmm, im really board. i think i'll create the human race!"
and for every 1 loving verse in the bible, God's unleashing wrath twice as much!
and for every 1 loving verse in the bible, God's unleashing wrath twice as much!
-
Jac3510
- Ultimate Member
- Posts: 5472
- Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:53 pm
- Christian: Yes
- Sex: Male
- Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
- Location: Fort Smith, AR
- Contact:
God didn't do anything "before" He created the earth. "Before" denotes time, and time is a physical property of the universe. Where there is no universe, there is no time. Therefore, it is a logically meaningless statement to say that God did anything "before" He created the earth.Iggy wrote:ok, if God always existed... what was he doin before he created earth? why all of a sudden would he choose to create us? i mean, what, he was checkin his email one day and said... "hmm, im really board. i think i'll create the human race!"
and for every 1 loving verse in the bible, God's unleashing wrath twice as much!
As for God being more wrathful than gracious, you've simply failed to understand that in Christ God has reconciled the world to Himself. All sin has been atoned for. He now disciplines His children, and those in rebellion, He deals with so as to either bring them to repentence or display His power through them that His children might know Him more. Regardless, His temporal wrath on evil in the here and now is always justified and is always in reaction to man's sin.
Let's talk about God being a wrathful God in the New Creation, when there will be no more pain, suffering, death, war, strife, sorrow, or misery.
As for "why" God created the universe, it was simply for the purpose of displaying His glory and power. His nature is such that He would have someone to shower His selfless and infinite love on. He did not have to create us, but He chose to, that He could love us and we could love Him. We were created for His pleasure, for it is His pleasure to love us. None of this is about us, as if we were the center of God's plan. Everything is about Him.
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
-
Iggy
- Recognized Member
- Posts: 84
- Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2006 7:05 pm
- Christian: Yes
- Sex: Male
- Creation Position: Undecided
- Location: Germany
- Contact:
ok, there has to be "before he created earth." to say there was no time, means the creation of earth was the beginning of time, meaning NOTHING existed before the creation of earth. meaning this is the oldest plannet there is! so, that to me says God didnt exist until he created the earth. there may not have been time as we know it, but there's always time no matter what. since God existed before the creation of earth, im wondering what he was doing? maybe we're not the first race he created and he finished out the events of that race before starting ours. maybe some type of beings lived on... venus. and after everything is accomplished here, he'll move on. and a different set of events will take place. the absents of evidence is not the evidence of absents. meaning, just cuz we have no eveidence, doesnt mean it could not have happened. just because it's not in the bible, doesnt mean its not true.
-
Iggy
- Recognized Member
- Posts: 84
- Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2006 7:05 pm
- Christian: Yes
- Sex: Male
- Creation Position: Undecided
- Location: Germany
- Contact:
hey, if all sins have been forgivin, shouldnt satan be in the clear then?
john 3:16 ...for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotton son, so who so ever believes in him will not die, but live forever.
I garuntee satan "believes" in jesus. they met and took a walk! so according to THAT verse, he should be in the clear?
john 3:16 ...for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotton son, so who so ever believes in him will not die, but live forever.
I garuntee satan "believes" in jesus. they met and took a walk! so according to THAT verse, he should be in the clear?
-
Jac3510
- Ultimate Member
- Posts: 5472
- Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:53 pm
- Christian: Yes
- Sex: Male
- Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
- Location: Fort Smith, AR
- Contact:
No, there was not time before God created the universe.
1. Time is a property of the universe.
2. The universe has not always existed.
3. Time has not always existed.
God created the universe, therefore, it is logically nonsense to say that God did anything "before" the universe existed. The words don't mean anything, Iggy. It's like asking God to create a rock so big He can't lift it, or asking Him to think of a time He didn't exist, or try to remember a moment when He didn't know everything. These are logically nonsense. They are meaningless statements. Time being a physical property of the universe has absolutely zero bearing on God's existence, so it is pointless and simply wrong to say that God didn't start to exist until He created the universe, much less the earth.
As for all sin being forgiven, Satan and other demons aren't saved because they aren't offered salvation. I don't care how much they believe. I don't care how much they beg for forgiveness. It isn't offered to them, because they aren't made in God's image. That is reserved for Man. Where in the Bible is salvation offered to angels who believe? The answer is that it isn't. It is offered to men who believe.
Regardless, you didn't deal with my point, which is that God's wrath is appeased by the sactifice of Christ. Sin is no longer the issue. You claimed that God is a wrathful God. You are right in that He is a holy and just God that cannot ignore sin. However, He paid the price for it Himself. Therefore, He is first and foremost a gracious God, for mercy triumphs over judgment. The little bit of evil that God tolerates (for a time), and deals with as necessary here on earth is nothing when compared to the eternity we will face where no such issues will exist. And such a world will exist solely by the graciousness of God. So, if you are going to talk about His wrath, you have to talk about His abounding graciousness as well, which far exceeds the justice He must dispense.
1. Time is a property of the universe.
2. The universe has not always existed.
3. Time has not always existed.
God created the universe, therefore, it is logically nonsense to say that God did anything "before" the universe existed. The words don't mean anything, Iggy. It's like asking God to create a rock so big He can't lift it, or asking Him to think of a time He didn't exist, or try to remember a moment when He didn't know everything. These are logically nonsense. They are meaningless statements. Time being a physical property of the universe has absolutely zero bearing on God's existence, so it is pointless and simply wrong to say that God didn't start to exist until He created the universe, much less the earth.
As for all sin being forgiven, Satan and other demons aren't saved because they aren't offered salvation. I don't care how much they believe. I don't care how much they beg for forgiveness. It isn't offered to them, because they aren't made in God's image. That is reserved for Man. Where in the Bible is salvation offered to angels who believe? The answer is that it isn't. It is offered to men who believe.
Regardless, you didn't deal with my point, which is that God's wrath is appeased by the sactifice of Christ. Sin is no longer the issue. You claimed that God is a wrathful God. You are right in that He is a holy and just God that cannot ignore sin. However, He paid the price for it Himself. Therefore, He is first and foremost a gracious God, for mercy triumphs over judgment. The little bit of evil that God tolerates (for a time), and deals with as necessary here on earth is nothing when compared to the eternity we will face where no such issues will exist. And such a world will exist solely by the graciousness of God. So, if you are going to talk about His wrath, you have to talk about His abounding graciousness as well, which far exceeds the justice He must dispense.
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
-
Iggy
- Recognized Member
- Posts: 84
- Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2006 7:05 pm
- Christian: Yes
- Sex: Male
- Creation Position: Undecided
- Location: Germany
- Contact:
ok, im still not getting past the time thing. Satan has been... "the devil" since the start of the earth. at some point, lucifer was God's go-to guy. so some events took place before the start of life as we know it. time...
and the answer is YES to your question. God the father could make something so big, that God the son couldnt physicly move it.
YES God the son could recall a time when he didnt exist and didnt know EVERYTHING.
the question on MY mind is... why would God make things so complicated to the point that people went crazy trying to figure him and his mystries out?
and the answer is YES to your question. God the father could make something so big, that God the son couldnt physicly move it.
YES God the son could recall a time when he didnt exist and didnt know EVERYTHING.
the question on MY mind is... why would God make things so complicated to the point that people went crazy trying to figure him and his mystries out?
-
Jac3510
- Ultimate Member
- Posts: 5472
- Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:53 pm
- Christian: Yes
- Sex: Male
- Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
- Location: Fort Smith, AR
- Contact:
Uhm . . . you do realize that there could be an unspecified period of time between the creation of the universe and the creation of the earth, right? This is especially true if you are OEC. If you are YEC, then you take Genesis and the rest of the Bible literally, then you shouldn't even be having this discussion.
And, no, God could NOT do something logically impossible. Let's look at the rock example:
God creates the rock so big He can't lift it. Now, there is something He cannot do, which means He is not omnipotent. Therefore, since it is possible that God cannot do something (lift a rock He created that He couldn't lift), then God is not omnipotent now. However, the very basis of the claim that God can do such a thing is that He is, in fact, omnipotent. Thus, the idea is self defeating.
Take another example. Can God create a being more powerful than Himself? If so, that implies there is power that God doesn't have. That means that God does not have all power, meaning He is not omnipotent.
God cannot do the logically impossible.
Again, there was no time before the universe began. Look: time is a physical property of the universe, like height, width, or length. Where there is nothing physical, there is no time. Therefore, "before" the universe was created, there is no such thing as "before" or "after." These phrases do not mean anything, because in order for them to have meaning, they must be set in the context of time.
And as an aside, if you think that there was a time that God the Son didn't exist, you need to re-examine your understanding of the Trinity. That's a dangerous view you hold to. Aside from this, it wasn't my argument. Can God the Father remember a time He didn't exist? If He can do the logically impossible, then He must be able to.
But, He can't. It doesn't mean anything. So, again, the words, "What did God do before He created the universe" have exactly the same meaning as "hlalaelihc lan oeih aln afen aenldsn faewinf aefn aekbalsnf aso;he."
It's just sounds put together that have no inherent meaning. You are trying to point to concepts that simply do not logically exist.
And as for things being complicated, there are two answers. First, the conversation we are having isn't complicated. There are complicated issues. This isn't one of them. Second, as for the complicated issues, everything is complicated. Some things look simple on the surface, but when you get underneath, they are, in fact, complicated. A table looks simple, but ask a physicist to explain how the atoms work together to form it. It looks simple to type these words, but ask a hand surgeon to explain what is going on whenever I go to type. He'll probably have to refer you to a neurologist when all is said and done so you can start to get a glimpse of what goes on at the brain's level, too. I hardly think that something as grand as God's plan--including His character and what He is doing--will be any less complicated.
And, no, God could NOT do something logically impossible. Let's look at the rock example:
God creates the rock so big He can't lift it. Now, there is something He cannot do, which means He is not omnipotent. Therefore, since it is possible that God cannot do something (lift a rock He created that He couldn't lift), then God is not omnipotent now. However, the very basis of the claim that God can do such a thing is that He is, in fact, omnipotent. Thus, the idea is self defeating.
Take another example. Can God create a being more powerful than Himself? If so, that implies there is power that God doesn't have. That means that God does not have all power, meaning He is not omnipotent.
God cannot do the logically impossible.
Again, there was no time before the universe began. Look: time is a physical property of the universe, like height, width, or length. Where there is nothing physical, there is no time. Therefore, "before" the universe was created, there is no such thing as "before" or "after." These phrases do not mean anything, because in order for them to have meaning, they must be set in the context of time.
And as an aside, if you think that there was a time that God the Son didn't exist, you need to re-examine your understanding of the Trinity. That's a dangerous view you hold to. Aside from this, it wasn't my argument. Can God the Father remember a time He didn't exist? If He can do the logically impossible, then He must be able to.
But, He can't. It doesn't mean anything. So, again, the words, "What did God do before He created the universe" have exactly the same meaning as "hlalaelihc lan oeih aln afen aenldsn faewinf aefn aekbalsnf aso;he."
It's just sounds put together that have no inherent meaning. You are trying to point to concepts that simply do not logically exist.
And as for things being complicated, there are two answers. First, the conversation we are having isn't complicated. There are complicated issues. This isn't one of them. Second, as for the complicated issues, everything is complicated. Some things look simple on the surface, but when you get underneath, they are, in fact, complicated. A table looks simple, but ask a physicist to explain how the atoms work together to form it. It looks simple to type these words, but ask a hand surgeon to explain what is going on whenever I go to type. He'll probably have to refer you to a neurologist when all is said and done so you can start to get a glimpse of what goes on at the brain's level, too. I hardly think that something as grand as God's plan--including His character and what He is doing--will be any less complicated.
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
-
bluesman
- Established Member
- Posts: 236
- Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2005 5:50 am
- Christian: No
- Location: Canada
english
I am wondering Iggy if your first language is not english?
Although, your english is pretty good.
Even native english speakers fall in the trap of not really getting the true meaning of the words in the bible.
The english translations we have now still need much work.
My understanding is that God is not a material being, but that he has the power to take that form. He uses that part of him which is the son to take
human form. I understand that God is basically a mind to put it simple.
Understanding the beginning of time and the universe is in a way beyond us, that holds regardless with or without Gods existence.
Could God have created other universes before this one ?
Possible. Yes
Could he have created other worlds with human-like life before this one?
Possible, Yes
There is one belief that Satan was given a world here on earth, but that it was wiped out between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. The modified Gap theory its called.
Now back to my first point about the english. You have to understand when it says "believe" that there is whole bunch of meaning to that word.
Satan know that God/Jesus exists, but he doesn't believe in Jesus!!
When God says "created in our image" God doesn't mean our outer appearance or our physical earthly body. Its more concerned with the nature of our spirit/soul.
Iggy, it sounds to me that your very new to trying to understand God and the Bible? Sometimes you have to slow down and try to understand one thing at a time. Just have faith that eventually much of it will become clearer and make more sense.
Mike
Bluesman
Although, your english is pretty good.
Even native english speakers fall in the trap of not really getting the true meaning of the words in the bible.
The english translations we have now still need much work.
My understanding is that God is not a material being, but that he has the power to take that form. He uses that part of him which is the son to take
human form. I understand that God is basically a mind to put it simple.
Understanding the beginning of time and the universe is in a way beyond us, that holds regardless with or without Gods existence.
Could God have created other universes before this one ?
Possible. Yes
Could he have created other worlds with human-like life before this one?
Possible, Yes
There is one belief that Satan was given a world here on earth, but that it was wiped out between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. The modified Gap theory its called.
Now back to my first point about the english. You have to understand when it says "believe" that there is whole bunch of meaning to that word.
Satan know that God/Jesus exists, but he doesn't believe in Jesus!!
When God says "created in our image" God doesn't mean our outer appearance or our physical earthly body. Its more concerned with the nature of our spirit/soul.
Iggy, it sounds to me that your very new to trying to understand God and the Bible? Sometimes you have to slow down and try to understand one thing at a time. Just have faith that eventually much of it will become clearer and make more sense.
Mike
Bluesman